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holtons
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wastage

Post by holtons »

I have read a few topics on this forum discussing the amount of wastage that should be factored into pricing and there seems to be quite a wide variation in opinion. Has anyone actually objectively measured and recorded over a period of time the waste generated on items like moulding, glazing, backboard and mount in order to calculate an accurate wastage factor?
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Re: wastage

Post by Not your average framer »

I've always worked on the basis of one third for wastage. I've never tried to work out what my exact wastage would be, so I don't have any basis for this figure.
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Re: wastage

Post by Not your average framer »

When using more expensive mouldings, you can always consider ordering them on chop service, if your supplier provides the service.
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Roboframer

Re: wastage

Post by Roboframer »

It's a bit of a minefield really.

If you class 'wastage' as what gets tossed in to the bin, then one third is ridiculous, if you throw out a third of what you buy you're a bit mad.

But one third, classed as what you cannot guarantee you can quickly sell, is fair enough, but it still hurts when a customer chooses that flourescent orange board you've never ordered before for a 10x8 and you have to order a minimum pack of 5 boards .... or even one board. What do you do, tell the customer it's just not worth it so pick another colour you have in stock or pay a stupid price based on your minimum order? Don't think so.

If you work from home/have no passing trade then you're more likely to get stuck with stuff that someone with a shop front, (who can push out ready made frames using offcuts of the frame and all its contents and pre-cut mounts), won't. When my mount board offcut box gets stuffed, we just bundle them up in to packs of 10 similar sizes and put them in the shop for a silly price, or cut them to common/standard size with common/standard size apertures and sell them at 20% off our list. The mounts they fell out from are paid for so they also are already paid for; the time isn't, but it's no time per mount when you do a shedload.

As for mouldings, we have a tote bucket under the morso extension arm; offcuts that are higher than that go back on the shelf, they'll match up with any stock we have and if we have no stock we hope they'll match up with the next batch. Lower than that they go in the bucket, (below half that height, if we can't use them immediately, they get tossed ..... unless they is, like, posh) maybe they'll get used on a bespoke job; maybe they'll get made into ready-mades and maybe neither will happen before the bucket gets stuffed and we either toss the lot or have a mad "£1 session" where we turn the lot - regardless - Larson Juhl or half inch black cushion, in to small square frames, no glass or backing, and bung them, at £1 each, in another tote bucket that lives outside the shop (All weathers, it has a lid) or, if we have more time, turn them in to 'exclusive' ready-mades, normally with double mounts and/or fillets, plus glass of course, which takes care of a whole load of (pretty much) already paid-for materials to boot.
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Re: wastage

Post by technoframer »

Roboframer wrote: If you class 'wastage' as what gets tossed in to the bin, then one third is ridiculous, if you throw out a third of what you buy you're a bit mad.
Disagree, one third is reasonable for bespoke. Also, if you calculate using the required length and multiply by 1.33 , you are binning a quarter of what you buy, not a third.
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Re: wastage

Post by Not your average framer »

Like I said, I have never worked out what my exact level of wastage would be. I have been given the guessed at figure of one third, because that is what I was told to expect while I was being trained. This is not a figure which I aim at when ordering stock, but an assumption of how things are likely to work out in real life.

For mouldings I order what I need plus a bit, but when the order arrives it is made up from whatever lengths are in stock at the suppliers warehouse. This means that my delivery will generally contain more than I need. This is how it is and unless I buy everything on a chop service, there is nothing I can do about it, so I just accept it.

I throw away a lot of smaller glass off cuts and generally try to avoid keeping too many glass off cuts at all. The way I control this process is a very simple one. Underneath my normal glass rack I have a small storage area for pre-cut standard glass sizes and I only keep enough of each size as this rack has capacity for. Any smaller pieces of glass which cannot be accommodated in the rack go straight into the dumpster.

I've had to learn the hard way not to keep any left overs other than my normal stock colours. Unwanted mountboards scraps go into a big pile which I try to use up, as undermounts, surfaces for cutting on, mountcutting slip mats, etc. Every now a large chunk of this pile goes straight into the dumpster - problem solved! I don't lose any sleep about how much goes into the dumpster, it's already been allowed for in my pricing structure and the sooner it gets in the dumpster the better.
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Re: wastage

Post by Gesso&Bole »

The wide variation in opinion, I would suggest, is to do with the wide variety of business models. If you only offer 6 mouldings, and churn out 100s of frames a week, then one would hope the wastage would not be a third. On the other hand, if you offer a service where the customer can choose the orange mountboard, as Robo mentioned (or any of the other 140 colours) then wastage will be higher.

For my normal bespoke pricing, I work on about one third wastage. If, on the other hand I am pricing for more of a volume job, then I will work on the basis of what I need to order in for the job.
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Re: wastage

Post by sim.on »

I work a couple of markets and have a simple pricing method. If a frame is going to need 3 1/2 metres I'd charge for two 2.9m lengths because that is what I would need to buy. I'd charge the same for 4 metres. It's nearly all polymer so I know the quality will be consistent. I know straight away what the glass/mounts/backing will cost. If a frame needed a piece of glass say 24 x 16 I'd charge for half a 48 x 36 sheet. Not the brightest pricing method I'm sure but it works for me.
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Re: wastage

Post by sinbad72 »

I have a simalar backround a sim.on above. For a 20x16 I would charge for the whole length, half a sheet of glass, around £6 for a single mount £10 for a double. Add an hours labour and Bobs you aunties husband. Thats what I call my "break even" point. The waste is more than covered here. Then there's the profit to be added after that and thats the bit you play by ear :D. They say over here that "a cheap man will never be out of work" It works for me and I've been in business for nearly 12yrs. Its not my hobby, its my primary income. I dont profess to be a master framer and I wont take on a job that is beyond my capabilities. I am quite happy to pass that on to a more skilled Framer :giggle:
:-) Actually, I quite like plastic moulding. :-)
Roboframer

Re: wastage

Post by Roboframer »

sinbad72 wrote: around £6 for a single mount £10 for a double
Why not £12? If the same two mounts were sold on two different jobs (for the same person for argument's sake) they'd still be £6 each and it's slightly quicker to cut two individual mounts than one double one as well.
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Re: wastage

Post by sinbad72 »

I'm not sure why.... I suppose coming from a sales backround and trying to please the customer comes into it. If a customer decides on a mount, the frame size automatically increases which means more profit anyway. That price was only an example of a stock mountboard costing £2 all in. Surely 80% profit is plenty for a whole 3 mins work :?: As I stated earlier a lot of my pricing is played by ear with many factors in the equation ie. value of the print, in stock moulding, time frame and even how much I warm to the person. If I get a smart arse who thinks Im too expensive I gladly challenge them to find another framer. Im not afraid to turn down the work. Its not like I dont need the work but more of a f**k you to them :mooning: I just dont like wasting time on tossers.
:-) Actually, I quite like plastic moulding. :-)
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Re: wastage

Post by Jonny2morsos »

holtons wrote:Has anyone actually objectively measured and recorded over a period of time the waste generated on items like moulding, glazing, backboard and mount in order to calculate an accurate wastage factor?
I don't think anyone has yet answered the question that was originally asked as quoted above and to be honest I am not about to. It seems most of us have a "back of a fag packet" method of calculating our wastage and this is probably because the majoritory of us do one offs as our main activity.

My own position is like Jim's (Gesso & Bole) in that I work on a percentage for bespoke jobs of 20-30% and for volume jobs I calculate the quantity of all the materials required for completing the order and work out my price based on that.

If at the end of a volume job I gathered together all the spare materials and measured them all I would have an accurate answer to the question but it would only apply to that one job.
Roboframer

Re: wastage

Post by Roboframer »

A lot of wastage, which of course should be factored, is still stock, whether out back waiting to be made in to something or made in to something and sitting on a shelf for sale out front.

About 50% of my ready-mades are made from 'already-paid-for' offcuts; you'd be lucky to find more than two the same. 50% of the other 50% are made from mouldings bought specially, but most of the glass and boards in those are also 'APF' offcuts, so they're always nice sales. (The rest I buy in - swept/decorative/aluminium/a very small amount of wooden)

I'd like to know how much I actually toss out all the same but an exact length of moulding and an exact area of board and glass would be a bit of a pain to measure (especially as I like the sound of breaking glass)! Maybe we could get some extra bins and actually take time out to measure a week's worth and then do an average based on that, or maybe it could be done by weight.
Graysalchemy

Re: wastage

Post by Graysalchemy »

If it is a low volume or bespoke I have estlite wastage set at 15% for moulding and about 20% for glass and board. However commercial jobs I work out how many shorts and longs I can get out of a length of moulding, and for mounts, glass and backing I work out how many I can get out of a sheet. That way you have accounted for your wastage. Unfortunately this doesn't take into account any damaged moulding or being sent lengths which were longer or shorter than expected, however I do find that on commercial jobs that wastage is minimal when you are making a large number of the same frame.
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