Well I don't blame you - I have had quite a bit of direct communication with the lady and all I have had is dismission of the raised point and then straight in to a tyrade of reasons to and benefits of joining the FATG - the woman is blinkered and the next time I communicate with the FATG - will be the day they walk through my shop door.
(By appointment too - just in case I am re-arranging my sock drawer that day!))
Thinking out loud
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Roboframer
Here is an example of how a topic on the Grumble INSPIRED an article in PFM!
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=1387&page=3
See the last few posts on page 3 and the first on page 4. The guy called 'Preservator' I believe is not in the framing trade - i think he works for National Museums. It is in his interest to be on a framers' forum - he wants to ensure his country's heritage is protected.
How are we about glazing oils? - no big deal at the shows or in the Trade Mags.
We have such a long way to go - not the forum - the forum is going great guns. I mean the COUNTRY!
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=1387&page=3
See the last few posts on page 3 and the first on page 4. The guy called 'Preservator' I believe is not in the framing trade - i think he works for National Museums. It is in his interest to be on a framers' forum - he wants to ensure his country's heritage is protected.
How are we about glazing oils? - no big deal at the shows or in the Trade Mags.
We have such a long way to go - not the forum - the forum is going great guns. I mean the COUNTRY!
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Dermot
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Lemon_Drop
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed 12 Oct, 2005 7:52 pm
One of the longest posts here. lots of people had their say and and at the end of the day it gives me a feeling that the FATG no longer repersents framers now, they may have done so in the past but those days are gone. I really failed to grasp what was happening in the world. Does it really matter, the real experts on framing can be found here or on the Framer's grumble. Even the simple thing of holding the Eire branch meeting, a child of 12 if asked where would you hold it, would tell them Killkenny which is more central and would allow anyone who wanted to go, a shorter journey, and Scopas Mouldings are based there, so I dont see a problem with that location, its the same a holding any meeting or trade show om the UK mainland, the obvious place is Birmingham. But to get there and all they want is to get you to join and then by books. its crazy. Talking about reference books brings back some memories, so years ago when I and my brothers and sisters were young, and money was in short supply or not even there at times, every so often these door to door salesmen would appear selling encyclopedias, and their sales line would be, " If you dont buy them , its your children will suffer through lack of education " like your bad parents.Blah Blah, How times have changed in a few years, now if I kept all the free Cd-Rom disks you get in various computer magaizenes. I would not be able to get into my bedroom. John said something about going to a FATG meeting ,I think it was him, and there was good few framers there, on the same night I was on the Framers Grumble. In the chatroom, 8 people there talking about the new Lifesaver Visualisation software, which two of them were testing the Beta Version for Lifesaver.
Times change, organisations that go on doing the same thing year after year become blinkered, and loose sight of why they were set up and who they repersent. The way forward is the internet, forums like this one and the Grumble, not on organisations tied to the past. Maybe its people on this forum are the new body to repersent the Uk/Ireland framers. Sounds crazy? Its sounds alot better the travelling 200 miles all over Ireland to a meeting and when you get there, have your arm twisted to join up and be asked how many books do you want. Thank God I did not even know about the meeting in the first place.
Times change, organisations that go on doing the same thing year after year become blinkered, and loose sight of why they were set up and who they repersent. The way forward is the internet, forums like this one and the Grumble, not on organisations tied to the past. Maybe its people on this forum are the new body to repersent the Uk/Ireland framers. Sounds crazy? Its sounds alot better the travelling 200 miles all over Ireland to a meeting and when you get there, have your arm twisted to join up and be asked how many books do you want. Thank God I did not even know about the meeting in the first place.
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James Miller
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Tue 15 Jun, 2004 5:41 pm
- Location: Pickerington, Ohio, USA
- Organisation: ARTFRAME, Inc.
- Interests: Picture framer; author of "THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO SHADOWBOXES AND FRAMING OBJECTS" and "MOUNTING OBJECTS WITH CLEAR FILM"; writer of feature articles for Picture Framing Magazine, USA; framing educator.
- Location: Pickerington, Ohio, USA
- Contact:
I feel a connection to this discussion and I hope my comments will be taken constructively, as intended.Lemon_Drop wrote:...Times change, organisations that go on doing the same thing year after year become blinkered, and loose sight of why they were set up and who they repersent. The way forward is the internet, forums like this one and the Grumble, not on organisations tied to the past...
We in the USA have similar conversations about PPFA. In my opinion the association has not yet, in its 20+ years, managed to fulfill its mission in serving the framing industry. That said, I have served on a number of committees (still do) and remain engaged in the association. Why? Because I feel strongly that our industry needs a uniting influence, and PPFA is still our best shot at that. I suspect the same is true of your FATG.
FATG, like PPFA and most other trade associations, runs on the participation of concerned members. Those who know the issues, and are willing to work, generally end up making the rules. Non-members, and members who stand by, accomplish little by criticizing, because they have little or no stake in the association, and the association does not represent them.
I believe the associations on both sides of the Atlantic have clear sight of who they represent: their members who choose to become involved.
I respectfully submit that if FATG (or PPFA) seems blinkered or out of touch with the industry, it is because it is not embraced or driven by the industry. While it is true that a trade association must cater to its trade, it is also true that its effectiveness depends on the trade's investment of time and effort (and yes, money) toward agreed goals.
Further, I submit that if The Grumble or this forum suffered from the same sort of apathy afflicting our industry's trade associations, then they would probably be equally blinkered.
Jim Miller, MCPF, GCF
Suburban central Ohio
Jim Miller
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Roboframer
I suppose the vast majority of our industry simply do not have the time to get actively envolved with a trade organisation because they are too busy making frames.
Most UK framers - FATG members or not; working to exacting high standards or not, are husband and wife teams, maybe with a few staff that enable them to take time out and have a holiday.
Personally, time out for me is precious and very hard earned, I strive to reach the stage where I only need to get envolved in the physical side of framing when I have to or want to.
THEN and only then would I consider working from the inside of the FATG.
At present, maybe there are too many on the FATGs committees that are too busy with their own businesses to make a difference - be they framers or suppliers. But the simple fact is that the organisation - as it is now, and as far as the average, and not so average framer in this country is concerned, is out of touch and unlike forums like this will never ever be impartial, and that, for me is a basic requisite. Why should a trade organisation or magazine be any different to a consumer one.
Most UK framers - FATG members or not; working to exacting high standards or not, are husband and wife teams, maybe with a few staff that enable them to take time out and have a holiday.
Personally, time out for me is precious and very hard earned, I strive to reach the stage where I only need to get envolved in the physical side of framing when I have to or want to.
THEN and only then would I consider working from the inside of the FATG.
At present, maybe there are too many on the FATGs committees that are too busy with their own businesses to make a difference - be they framers or suppliers. But the simple fact is that the organisation - as it is now, and as far as the average, and not so average framer in this country is concerned, is out of touch and unlike forums like this will never ever be impartial, and that, for me is a basic requisite. Why should a trade organisation or magazine be any different to a consumer one.
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markw
Jim Millers comments are a sound observation of the way virtually any committee works - if you dont participate you cant influence policy.
The difference is that we have moved on in terms of communications - committees can meet in hyperspace - anytime. The fact that nobody will formally represent our UK trade body on this forum rather makes the point that opinions outside the formal committees are ignored.
Sadly the result of this lack of engagement with the mass of potential members results in a uk trade body that seriously under represents the greater part of the industry not only from their opinions, but also from sheer involvment from individuals parting with their hard earned cash in the form of membership fees.
It would be a mistake to think that forums such as this can replace formal associations - its been said before that in realistic terms we dont represent a huge number of opinions (EST Forum) - but any organisation worth joining will be aware that to represent a wider part of the industry they need to participate encourage and use forums. Perhaps when that happens individuals will think that their opinions matter and that its worth being part of a body thats moving things forward for everyone - not just the few who have the time and energy to shout loudest.
The difference is that we have moved on in terms of communications - committees can meet in hyperspace - anytime. The fact that nobody will formally represent our UK trade body on this forum rather makes the point that opinions outside the formal committees are ignored.
Sadly the result of this lack of engagement with the mass of potential members results in a uk trade body that seriously under represents the greater part of the industry not only from their opinions, but also from sheer involvment from individuals parting with their hard earned cash in the form of membership fees.
It would be a mistake to think that forums such as this can replace formal associations - its been said before that in realistic terms we dont represent a huge number of opinions (EST Forum) - but any organisation worth joining will be aware that to represent a wider part of the industry they need to participate encourage and use forums. Perhaps when that happens individuals will think that their opinions matter and that its worth being part of a body thats moving things forward for everyone - not just the few who have the time and energy to shout loudest.