Thinking out loud

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 8:55 am

Roboframer wrote:a UK branch of the PPFA?

That might not be a bad idea. Once upon a time I was a member of ACM (the American Association of Computing Machinery) and they had a UK branch. Their publications were far better than the British equivalent and membership procured discounted prices. Interestingly, at that time membership of the ACM provided reduced rate membership of the BCS (British Computing Society). Can't quite imagine FATG agreeing to such an arrangement.

I see that the first year's membership of PPFA is only $50. Is anyone here a UK member? Are there any benefits in currently being a UK member?

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 9:33 am

ADVANTAGES OF BEING A MEMBER OF THE
PROFESSIONAL PICTURE FRAMERS’ ASSOCIATION (PPFA)

•Members belong to an international association – become part of a team

•Belong to an Chapter of PPFA (These could be started in the UK and Ireland) - Chapters of PPFA provide a link to colleagues who share.

•Become part of a group of framers who network for the benefit of their business and the industry as a whole

•Receive a monthly “For Members Only” news letter…..this is pretty good…….

•Online Exchange “Hitchhiker” – ask for help and receive replies from experts and colleagues…………..a bit like the Grumble but more straight laced and for members of the PPFA only

•Access to PPFA archives – valuable information on numerous framing issues……good

•Access to a “Helpline” for tough framing projects. (This works very well I have used it in the past Diane at the PPFA who runs this part is a dream to work with)

•A sign on the door which shows your customers that you are a member of a Professional Picture Framers Association……………that speaks for itself

•Access to the PPFA bookshop where members are given a discount on the purchase of business resources

•Member discount to the cost of writing the CPF exam. An example of the CPF exam and the study guide can be downloaded from the PPFA web page. The mathematics aspect of the exam has/can be adapted for UK/Irish framers

•As a member of PPFA you automatically become a member of the Photo Marketing Association http://ppla.pmai.org/ this is who will process your application for the PPFA your membership invoice will be in UK£ …………but for the present you need to make the application to the US they do it this way currently for administration needs……if the PPFA gets of the ground in this part of the world the administration of your membership will move to the UK.

International (PMAI). PMAI has over 40 000 members and are in over 100 countries. Membership is for the UK is administered through the PMAI office in the UK……………you will also get the PMAI news letter………

•Possible access to PMAI benefits eg insurance cover (most likely)

For more information refer to the PPFA web page on www.ppfa.com

Any framer who requires any information from an UK/Irish perspective can give me a call on 00353 87 2575059 and I will do my best to help

TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SPECIAL FIRST YEAR MEMBERSHIP OFFER TO JOIN THE PPFA…………….if my calculations are right that’s about UK£30.00 or Euro €40.00

PS I’m travelling till Saturday 14th October 2006 with limited access to email and my computer ……..so if you need any more information from me give me a call on 00353 87 2575059 I will be only to pleased to help in anyway.

A my new business has no real link to framing these days I let membership of the PPFA lapse as it is not necessary to be a member ……….but if the PPFA gets of the ground in this part of the world I will re join and do what I can to assist in getting things started……..

Best regards and good luck

Dermot

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 5:49 pm

Well this is causing quite a stir and I don't think the MD of the FATG has even read it, despite being sent the link.

I have received emails, phone calls and PMs - all positive. One suggested it unethical though to post a personal email on a public forum - so I emailed those whose emails I posted - Rosie sumner and Martin Harold, telling them that I had posted their emails here and stating that if they agreed it was unethical and/or, for any reason did not want their emails posted here, that I would delete them and replace them with the gist of what they said.

Martin Harold has not replied yet. Rosie Sumners said it was both unethical and ILLEGAL to do this - to copy an email in this way or even repeat the gist of one. (Which, I suppose is what I have just done in the last sentence)

It is not illegal - it could be seen as unethical to SHOW - word for word what someone has written in a personal email.

It is not illegal to tell others what someone has said to you, be it verbally, in a signed letter or by email. If it was, all newspapers and broadcasting media would be in deep trouble for giving details of personal emails affecting the very running of our country - let alone something as (relatively) harmless as this!

More to follow.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 6:05 pm

Roboframer wrote:Rosie Sumners said it was both unethical and ILLEGAL to do this

She could be right. I had to sign the Official Secrets Act once. It then became illegal -- immediately and forever -- for me to tell anyone about the work I was doing or that I had signed the Official Secrets Act (oops!). Maybe FATG have their own version of the Act -- they certainly keep themselved pretty secret so far as the frame-buying public is concerned.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 6:07 pm

Thanks Dermot. I'm off to try the PPFA for a year. Got to be worth $50.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 6:54 pm

Roboframer
Give the Guild Legal Service a ring and see what they say!!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 7:14 pm

Thought of that John, but I'm not going to worry - I know I have done nothing wrong and also that I am going to get nowhere with the FATG.

If they can't see the potential of this forum it's their loss.

I've emailed Rosie and told her her email has been deleted, she was mad as she said she had marked her emails 'confidential' but she had not. (and now I've mentioned more 'gist' - have I broken the law? Of course not - could it even be construed as unethical? Nope!)

You may recall during a topic I started a few months back on an artist selling art 'by the foot' that I asked for the FATG's opinion, Rosie emailed me then and DID mark it 'Confidential' I respected that confidentiality. As this time it was NOT marked confidential, and as she was giving the FATG a plug, I saw no harm!

Had a phone call from Dermot today, boy is it a shame he is not in the framing business anymore - still a huge mine of info though.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 7:58 pm

What an interesting topic and great discussion!

Dermot wrote:As well as having the PPFA in Australia they also have their own PPFA Forum
http://www.forum.ppfaaustralia.org/

Our PPFA forum has a number of sections that are invisible to participants who are not PPFA members. One section is called "Framing University" in which we are building up a collection of tutorials on particular topics. This will become a valuable resource for PPFA members in Australia and other countries.

The forum came about because of security problems with another open forum that ran for many years. Forum "terrorists" or "flamers" were a problem and the Ezboard site had been attacked many times which resulted in many posts being lost. (We, the forum administrators got the blame for deleting people's posts)

Forums are only ever used by a tiny percentage of people who are involved in the particular field, so it's just not possible to get everyone involved. Particularly suppliers. They always have some reason why they won't participate.

Dermot wrote:Robo (John) Ormond would be able to give you some details of how they got things started in Australia ……

Quentin Webster has to get credit for getting PPFA under way in Australia. He has put in a huge amount of time and his own funds to do this. Membership is growing steadily, but there is still a lot of work to do to get a larger proportion of Aussie framers on board.

I agree with another poster that the name "Fine Art Trade Guild" doesn't give anyone any idea that the organisation is for framers, but it is good that you guys have such an organisation.

I haven't read their "levels" lately, but when I did a couple of years ago I was amazed that MDF was considered OK in C/P framing. My personal view is that it has no place in my workshop, let alone in C/P framing.
Robo and I both seem to have a similar bottom level of framing and don't even do the FATG's lower levels. It seems that those levels might be for mass producers of ready mades.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 8:02 pm

Here's an example of the power of these forums.

Today I got in a pair of boxing gloves to frame (Thigned by Crith Eubankth)- a firtht - sorry - a first! ... but no big deal, just another shadowbox with something different in it this time.

But customer wanted them framed separately - one 'as cheap as poss' - no problem, pick a colour to back it and line the box and away we go.

The second she wants a 'bit special' and I knew I had seen something on The Grumble (looked here too but found nothing - there WILL be something when I have done these!)

Took her email address (if we trusted ourselves with a computer in the shop I could have shown her this immediately) to email her with pictures of the sort of thing I can do.

Take a look - TWO jobs.

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=7067

Can the FATG compete with that?

Lemon_Drop · Post by **Lemon_Drop** » Wed 11 Oct, 2006 10:54 pm

I'm not a member of the FATG, and looking at this post I have no intention of joining an organization that looks like its falling apart at the seams. Someone posted that in the South East of England, there is 81 frame shops and only 10 members of the FATG are in that area. Not a very good statistic is it? So it means that in a small area 71 framers don't know or dont want to join that organisation. As for the other 10 framers, they pay their membership fee and have nights out for meetings and talks about framing issues, well not really, nobody turns up to those meetings. As for Rosie Summers, she's only doing her job, talking the talk. At a time maybe the FATG was a important group to be apart of, but those times are long gone, its failure to embrace the power of the internet to its own advantage contribute to its downfall. It might see itself as a voice for the framing industry or wishes to do so, but only a small minority of framers want to be a part of that organisation. the rest dont want to joing or listen to it. As for Dermot's posts about the PPFA, not thats what a framing organisation is all about, the other extreme of the FATG. An organisation that can be a true global voice of professional framers. Like is said at the start, im not a member of the FATG and my opinions are based on what I have read on this forum and from others. With the mention of the word LEGAL in any posting its better to cover your ass

, BTW Rosie if your lurking on here, do a search in google for Public Relations, God knows the FATG needs help in that department. I will wait for the day when an Irish/English branch of the PPFA is formed. By the looks of things that won't be long. In the mean time, I will join online.

aivar · Post by **aivar** » Thu 12 Oct, 2006 5:12 am

Excuse, that I interfere with conversation not on a theme...
BRAVO!!!!Roboframer!!!!!

Allow to publish to me your design decision on the website?

Lemon_Drop · Post by **Lemon_Drop** » Thu 12 Oct, 2006 4:27 pm

[quote] Allow to publish to me your design decision on the website?
I'm totally lost now.I know its a long thread and something thats important and needs to be discusses, but where did the website come from?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 12 Oct, 2006 7:15 pm

Lemon Drop,

I think he wants me to post photos of the framed boxing glove here when it is done, and so I will.

I have until Christmas (model customer!)

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 12 Oct, 2006 7:21 pm

TPB arrived yesterday - if you get it turn to P3 - editor's comment, last paragraph.

If you don't - it says that in one month TPB will evolve from a purely paper publication to an online magazine ...... to ultimately create a global network for galleries and framers to communicate with each other....

Well that's a step in the right direction!

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Thu 12 Oct, 2006 9:16 pm

Yes, it is quite timely with this thread that TPB are doing editorials on the Internet and the value of the web as a whole

sarah · Post by **sarah** » Fri 13 Oct, 2006 8:56 am

Roboframer wrote:Rosie Sumners said it was both unethical and ILLEGAL to do this

Robo she's just trying to rattle your cage, it's not illegal, unethical maybe, (although I understand why you wanted to share it with us), but certainly not illegal!

It is clear that this woman isn't interested in helping the framing fraternity in the slightest, she has only her own interests at heart. (getting herself a pay rise even though guild numbers are dropping) So, a thought I have had is why not all join, over run the guild with people who have the same passion for our trade as we do and change it from the inside.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri 13 Oct, 2006 3:24 pm

Sarah, a good thought about all joining and changing it from the inside.

I spent 3 years trying to get the Guild down to the South West. Yet through (I believe) lack of PR only 4 people were interested. Even with the secondary talk by the MD being on PR and how to use the media.

That could be a long, tortorous and frustrating route.

Lemon_Drop · Post by **Lemon_Drop** » Fri 13 Oct, 2006 7:18 pm

That could be a long, tortorous and frustrating route.
Why join any organasiation or business that has suffered from mismanagement for years, and is now in the position where the vast majority of framers who either dont know of their existance or for various reasons dont want to join it? As for joining or and trying to make changes from the inside, is it really worth the effort ? The problems did not happen overnight.What you have really is an organasiation that has lost touch of the people its supposed to be a voice for, has no intention of embracing new technology, has no idea of public relations, membership falling, basically they are rooted in the past. If it was a company on the stock exchange would you buy their shares, dont think so. So if you would not invest money why invest your time trying to change things

Lemon_Drop · Post by **Lemon_Drop** » Fri 13 Oct, 2006 7:31 pm

I'm starting to quote myself

Well it is Friday the 13th

The longer this thread goes on the more attractive Dermot's post concerning the PPFA becomes.

absolute framing · Post by **absolute framing** » Sat 14 Oct, 2006 3:04 pm

Hi All,

I am a framer based in Ireland and joined the FATG a year ago. I found the GCF test a great step in the right direction, but only that - an entry level guide to correct methods.
My main dealings with the guild was through the Down School of Framing - who are great and helped and advised me a lot. brilliant training and advice !!

They also ran some great courses with Pete Bingham, and I am doing another with Dave Woolas in November.
However, when I went to a branch meeting (Eire Branch ) in Galway, Rosie was there, and was only interested in arm twisting people to join the FATG (2 framers did) and selling us books. When I brought up the issue that some of the benefits to UK members (discounted adverts in Yellow Pages etc) are not available here, here response was that I should organise this for myself directly with companies !! Hmmmm.... I thought I was paying the Guild to do things like this for me, not working as an un-paid lackie !
Next year I wont be renewing my membership

Stephen GCF