Thinking out loud

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Roboframer

Thinking out loud

Post by Roboframer »

I spend a lot of time on the Grumble, probably too much - it has a huge amount of registered members and regular posters, people are addicted to it.

I'm not making comparisons - I suppose some STATES in the US have more framers than we do in our whole country.

They also have a trade organisation with the word 'FRAMER' in it and most people are either members or have respect for it - either is not the case here. They also have a trade magazine with the word FRAME in - we do not.

We have the Fine ART trade guild, its magazine ART business today and we have the PICTURE business.

What all these name shout is ART - PICTURES - DESIGN - SELL - not MAKE....

America is leaving us standing and The Grumble, the PPFA and PFM is to thank for that.

On the grumble you have people from National museums giving advice on conservation - you have about 20 'Pete Binghams' giving advice on everything, there are specialists in all fields.

Why can't we have that here?

I know it's up to John and where he sees this going at the end of the day but I'm putting the following to everyone just to see who thinks what, and so that John can too.

How about we put and ad in both TPB and ABT - as big and colourful as poss to plug this site as I'm sure there are hundreds of framers out there who are unaware and would use it - it's a very useful tool RIGHT NOW - but if we could get the FATG to join in and TPB (the editor is a registered Grumbler) then the 'big name' framers and other experts may join in.

It's all about raising standards and awareness - who would not want to be part of that.

We already have some big names here on the supplier side and I'm sure in time others will join, but let's speed it up.

Oh - who's going to pay for all these ads?

Well we'll split the cost and I'm in for a starter!

FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDBACK PLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEASE
Dermot

Post by Dermot »

John

In fairness the FATG have mentioned the Grumble www.thegrumble.com in their journal in the past, I no longer subscribe so I have little idea what it is up to these days, my face to face interaction with various people from the FATG regarding the Grumble has l left a lot to be desired, one leading light of the FATG thinks it is a very negative site because of it’s name…….yet he was quite happy to use it commercially to promote some of his companies products.

I cannot recall if the FATG have ever mentioned John’s site (this website) though I do have a feeling that they may have once.

Perhaps the problem of those engaged with the FATG is that they fear the likes of this site because some of their ideas could be challenged very quickly and robustly if they are not living up to the readers expectations…………I also suspect that there is quite a bit of ignorance regarding the power of the internet as a means of communicating and how to use it to communicate, the sad thing is if they don’t waken up to the internet as a means of communication the FATG and it likes will cease to exist as have similar organisations in other industries in the not to recent past…………..the FATG have made some soundings and very light efforts to engage the internet………but they have a veeeeeeeeeeeeeery long way to go.

With respect to TPB they never managed to process my subscription on a few occasions to get their publication just across the water to Ireland……………I don’t hold much hope for TPB entering the internet age………..

Question how many people reading here get their news from the daily newspaper, radio or TV these days……….I know I don’t, I get most of it on line these days as I also get most information about something I will want to buy for example travel, holidays, cars, office equipment, food (yes we have special diet needs in our household), furniture, books, cinema, banking, Etc. Etc……….well to be quite honest just about the first place I will look these days for information is on line…………we potter around the house with our wireless computers these days just like a few years ago people pottered around their houses with a magazine, paper or the yellow pages/phone book tucked under their arms to get information …………………….and this is how it is going in more and more households…………..and because of my connections to the computer industry I’m very much in a position to be aware of this trend.

I have said it before John just needs to hold on his day is coming, I suspect he is adding more new members to this site each month than the FATG is getting each month and that this site will be the leading point of reference in a number of years for the Picture Framing Business……………..I would love to be proven wrong about the FATG….

I was at a meeting during the week in connection with my new business and was astonished to learn that the Society that organised it has over 500 members in Ireland all driven through an online presence, this industry is smaller than the picture framing business in Ireland, there is no organisation that represents 500 framers in Ireland, there is a similar Society in Scotland/UK for that industry who have proportionally per population as many members ………………..these online Societies have replaced land based representation for this industry sector

John Turner you are very typical of someone who has embraced the internet and who is now reaping the rewards for what you are doing, and as regards the time spent online if you could have gone land based to gain all the new knowledge you have gained since you joined this site and the Grumble…………..how much time would you have hade to devoted to that, I suspect much more than you have spent around this site or the Grumble………….

The Internet is here……………..not coming ……….and those who wont engage and more importantly learn how to truly engage it are doomed to disappear
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Well, maybe there'll be no need to post any ads - I'm sure more people in high places read this than we realise. I think this is a bandwagon they should be jumping on - they could use this to their advantage as per the PPFA/PFM mag/etc on The Grumble.

I would have thought that The Picture Business would be more than capable of mixing it here with us as they are owned by TPS (TRade Promotion Services?) who run the Spring/Autumn fairs etc etc and must have more financial clout to call on than the FATG.

I think that I'll cut and paste this topic, once it is done with, to both the FATG and TPB anyway - just incase they miss it. I think there's enough here already to make them think

Thanks Dermot
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Post by Framing Norah »

I believe that there is a cultural reason why we do not have a 'Grumble'. In comparison to us, our American cousins are more open. They will disclose their innermost thoughts at the drop of a hat, and they will also readily share their knowledge and experience with others.

The Brits, on the other hand, are a lot more reticent, unwilling to speak out or complain. I’m not so sure that the British framers are unaware of the forum, they just don’t want to join in. I never come on to the forum, but there are one or two guests already here, and judging by the topic views there would appear to be quite a high lurker to member ratio.
Robo wrote: They also have a trade organisation with the word 'FRAMER' in it and most people are either members or have respect for it - either is not the case here. They also have a trade magazine with the word FRAME in - we do not.
It’s important to consider not just what’s left out of the name, but what is included. Notice that American framers do not have a guild, with its medieval overtones of trade secrets, strict hierarchy, and closed shop protectionism.

But is it not ironic to suggest using ABT etc. to promote the forum, surely if the Internet was such a great thing, the FATG management would be discussing right now how they might raise awareness of The Guild on the forum?
FN
Dermot

Post by Dermot »

I have discussed with some of the people at the FATG how the FATG could raise the level of awareness…………….I discussed this at the very top level……………the conclusion I cam to was that the FATG people did not have even the vaguest notion of what I was talking about………….they had no interest in learning about how the internet works……..I guess the thought of the challenge was just to daunting…………..you could actually see these various peoples eyes glazing over…………..they were totally out of their depth………..

And they still are………..nothing has been done to up the awareness of the FATG on the internet………….I just did a check on the awareness on the various search engines for the FATG (yes this is a very simple thing to do anyone can do it) and little has changed from a few years ago……….

Perhaps it is time that a few people at the FATG got honest and put their hand up and admit that they are out of their depth about the internet and ask for a little help………about the difference in designing a website and how internet users can find the FATG on the web…..

The FATG cannot justify their use of the internet and anyone who tries to support them in this endeavour of justification is no better…………….the internet by now should be the main means of communication that the FATG uses.

And as for the notion that people in the US are different than people in this part of the world with respect to the internet that is a crock of s**t ……..the difference is that in the US they have the support of the leaders in the Framing Industry to use the internet……those leaders engage on the internet themselves ……to show good example.......in other words they lead.....

Again I have very close contacts with the computer/internet industry and my analyses are based on fact not some vague idea the we are different in this part of the world from the US……………..the information I have access to is all public domain information………that I have taken the time and trouble to learn how to find and use……………again my knowledge is based on fact……..not some high
brow interpretation……

PS
BTW the qualification you get from the PPFA in the US is a recognised educational qualification which is more than can be said for what you can get from the FATG…..
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

Hello. Timely thread.
After some 3 years of 'haranging' the FATG and Rosie in particular. At long last there is a meeting in the South West at Plymouth, tomorrow evening (Monday 2nd Oct).
Rosie in particular is giving a talk on PR. She may just shoot herself in the foot. In fairness though, I will listen.
My main gripe is that England does NOT finish at Plymouth. In the SW area Yellow Pages there are 81 Frame shops, yet only 10 are members and there is only 1 yes ONE GCF in Cornwall and Devon. ME.
Just why is that. Well one reason is that a majority of framers down here have not heard of the FATG - (thinking out aloud - is that a good thing). Quite a few others have seen the ABT magazine, and as I have quoted in earlier threads have renamed it as A Black Tie magazine.
I will attend, listen and if allowed put my penny worth in. I certainly will attempt to promote this forum and tell the FATG that IMHO they are missing a huge marketing trick and possibly members by not acknowledging this site is here.
Well let you all know
John GCF
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

I'm sure my ABT subscription has expired - seems a while since my last issue - but then it's seemed that way before but then one has turned up.

Thing is this time I don't care! Why do I need it? - The framing articles are minimal and there is more going on here and TFG than any magazine can compete with and it's LIVE.

I've still got TPB for what is new product wise.

Why isn't my ATB subscription on a standing order - why don't I get a reminder via email?

The Guild and their magazine could do themselves a lot of favours here - so could TPB and every UK supplier there is.

If any or all of the above are lurking - DON'T - register and get stuck in!
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

200+ views in 24 hours!

Sunday too - have 200 UK framers pored over TPB or ABT today? Doubt it!

Makes me wish I could start my own framers' association and/or trade mag and get in here first, why the established ones can't see the potential beats me.
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Post by jeyelle »

"Makes me wish I could start my own framers' association and/or trade mag and get in here first, why the established ones can't see the potential beats me".

Hi There Robo

Now that would be an interesting publication, and maybe with time, it would/could be a serious consideration.
I for one would jump at the chance of a "framers association", ran by, and for "framers", and sure many others would too.....
I think you may be surprised by the amount of interest that would stir, amongst the ones, that are less experienced through to the "masters".....
Would it ever be something you would seriously consider......???

All the Best

Jeremy
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Well I seriously would! But as things are I'm a full time framer working for myself and I've never had a worse boss!

Seriously - at present I don't have time to frame stuff for the shop or make our own ready-mades.

Once my framer can work at my pace I'll be FREEEEE again to do other things.

I think I've mentioned here what I would call this trade organisation - the FRAMING & Art Retail Trade Society - that's right - F.A.R.T.S. !!

As the founder I could put the word 'Old' In front of it :D
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Just look at the amount of views on some of these topics - the washlines topic got 9400. 'How much?' in the Pricing forum got nearly 21000 - albeit over quite a long time period.

Proof that well knowm/well qualified framers and educators could really help to increase standards, skills and awareness with a vehicle like this.
markw

Post by markw »

I try quite hard to get other framers involved in this forum - I bully every rep that comes into my gallery to join in and make knowledgable comments. Most seem to shy to actually get involved.

It would seem from the viewing figures that a lot of people look already - I doubt you will change the lookers to contributers overnight with an expensive ad. My advice would be to submit an article based upon your experience of using forums to both ABT and TPB. they like to recieve interesting copy - they may even pay you for it.
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

To set the scene. A meeting of the South West Branch of the FATG. Guest speaker Pierre Lafrance giving a talk on gilding techniques and Rosie Sumner giving a short talk about effective PR in business. Starting at 7.30 at the Mount Batten Centre, Plymouth.

I was actually quite impressed. NOT . It was cancelled last Wednesday (27th Sept). However I did not find out until I had actually arrived at the centre. It was cancelled because only 4 (Yes folks FOUR) people had shown interest.

That says it all doesnt it? The whole of Cornwall, Devon and possibly parts of Dorset and we get 4. Mind you, I have spoken to about 8 framers down here and they didnt even know about it, let alone who the FATG are. This brick wall is beginning to hurt now.

So an interesting 4 hour drive covering 160 miles. On telephoning the Guild this morning, I get: "Oh I left a message on your voice mail, so sorry you didnt get it". Interesting, I do not have voice mail, not even an answer machine in the shop. On telling the membership person this, she replied "Oh thats right, must have sent you an email instead". I am sat here now still awaiting it, Somewhere out there in the ether is an email for me.

One of my questions to Rosie would have been, "what do I get for nearly £200 per year?". Now I know for sure. The square root of nothing, not even a personal telephone call, considering as I was the one who pressured the Guild into setting this one up.

Another question would have been "Why will you not acknowledge or embrace the power of the Internet and especially a certain Picture Framing Forum, where there are some 280 participants of which only about 10 (a guess on my part) are members of the Guild" This was posed on the telephone call this morning and the reply from Samantha was. "We have not got the people or the time to moderate something like that". No Samantha you do not have to moderate it, that is being done quite professionally already. All you need to do is be a voice for the Guild and look after your framers, instead of your Artists and Art publishers. I will give you an example. Last year I asked the Guild by email for help on a certain project, hedging my bets I posed the same question on the USA Grumble. Within 15 minutes, I had replies from Pakistan, Australia and the States. I am still waiting for any type of reply from the Guild.
Samantha replied with "I will get somebody to ring you back John".

So not a happy hector down here at the moment. I will cool down a bit, then put pen to paper and write Rosie and maybe ABT.

Watch this space for a reply.
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Post by Not your average framer »

Merlin Framers wrote: It was cancelled because only 4 (Yes folks FOUR) people had shown interest.
It would be interesting to know how many people is enough to get the FTAG interested in coming. Considering that this had something to do with PR, the PR result of this speaks volumes.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

markw wrote: My advice would be to submit an article based upon your experience of using forums to both ABT and TPB. they like to recieve interesting copy - they may even pay you for it.
I have had quite a few letters printed in both trade mags and they have had effects. Have also had two articles published by TPB.

We'll see how this goes - pushing 540 views already - but only 6 or 7 posters on the topic.

Once the topic has 'peaked' I'll send it to the FATG, TPB and my main framing suppliers. (D&J Simons, Arqadia, Nielsen, Lion) I suspect they have read it already, but once I have done that I will KNOW they have, will they be conspicous by their silence?

An email to me will be no good - I'll only copy it to here anyway. A reply HERE is what we want.

Do it now, you know it makes sense!
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Post by BaBaZa »

The magazines are probably protecting themselves by not advertising sites like this and The Grumble. On these types of sites it is easier to search for information and to allow comments (good or bad) about suppliers and products. The magazines rely too much on advertising revenue and as such will always be biased to some degree.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Plus they are not just or MAINLY about framing, unlike PFM magazine which has strong ties with The Grumble.

At the US trade shows Grumblers are given a Grumble badge, not just to recognise fellow Grumblers, but also because suppliers know that a good word on TFG goes a long way.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

BaBaZa wrote: The magazines rely too much on advertising revenue and as such will always be biased to some degree.
And this is why and where this site can come into it's own - It is IMPARTIAL!

But just by being here and making worthwile contribution the magazines and the FATG can do thenselves a lot of favours. People may have issues with the FATG and they may take a right earbashing at first, but maybe not, their heart is after all, in the right place.

I don't have a local branch near me - would join the FATG just to attend one if one existed. I could host events/meetings ('COULD' being the operative word)
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

markw wrote: I bully every rep that comes into my gallery to join in and make knowledgable comments. Most seem to shy to actually get involved.
I don't think most reps would be interested in looking and contributing here after a stressful day on our roads (even more stressful for some when they get here and meet Mrs Robo - but not usually on the framing side of things) and I don't blame them. But their customer service depts etc etc could be here.

I've known for a while that certain companies are here as their reps have mentioned things I've said - but they didn't see it - they were told by head office.
markw

Post by markw »

Never seen Mrs Robo posting - sounds like she could have an interesting perspective.
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