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Discuss Picture Framing topics.

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markw

Post by markw »

wee forum :shock:
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

I have sent an email with a link to this topic to Rosie Summers (FATG)
D&J Simons, Arqadia, Glass & Mirror, Wessex, Lion & Nielsen.

I invited them to give opnion, either by reply or by joining in here, also volunteered a letter/article to TPB and/or ABT.

If anyone else wants to do the same to other suppliers etc, please do!

I really hope the FATG show up, and if they do, please bear in mind what Norah said!
Roboframer

Reply from FATG M.D.

Post by Roboframer »

I have had a couple of replies - I'll just post one here - Rosie Summers Head Honcho of the FATG.

I'm not going to tell you what I think of it - all I'll say is that my wife opened the emails after work this evening and I thought someone had forwaded a really good joke - she was laughing her head off!

I will try again with Rosie - I'm sure my email went straight over her head, but it was short and simple, with a link here, also to TFG & FACTS

Also had a very nice reply from Martin Harold at Lion, which I'll post later -I'm off out for the evening, and a phone call from TPB saying they would offer support to this site and will be in contact with John

Here is what Rosie Summer said

(THIS EMAIL HAS BEEN DELETED BY ROBOFRAMER)

Explanation in post on page 4.
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

Oh John that hurts and as you say really laughable.

I am one of those qualified framers at GCF standard. ABT is a load of c**p and no way keeps one up to date.

A meaningful qualification. excuse me to who? 90% plus of the public do not even know the FATG exist let alone any qualification that is not recognised by any educational body.

Rosie must be one really clever person as she obviously never uses the WWW to increase her knowledge or search for any type of query that she has.

This forum is about sharing knowledge, freely with and without humour. I repeat my tale. My question of two years ago to the FATG still has not been answered. Within 10 minutes of posting I had replies from all over the world, each with a slightly different slant or technique. I used that combined with my knowledge to complete the task.

FATG is now in danger of losing the ONLY CORNISH GCF on its books with a reply like that.
John GCF
Framing Norah
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Post by Framing Norah »

When writing to Christrose, you obviously omitted the BFA (hons) SGF from your signature, robo.

It's the only explanation I can think of for such a reply, she obviously is unaware of the caliber of person with whom she is dealing.
FN
foxyframer
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Post by foxyframer »

Why was I not surprised to see this reply from the FATG. Their attitude has not changed over the past thirty years,at least. Qualifications are to be thoroughly commended; but there still has to be a natural aptitude and sympathy involving the framers' skill as well. FATG must think they are the B all and End all to pontificate on our trade, and be under the misplaced impression that this friendly forum does not contribute widely to everyones benefit.

I can see this reaction from Rosie generating a huge response. Might even stir a few lurkers into posting a comment !

I never became a member in the early 70's, even when it was the 'thing to do'.
Measure twice - cut once
BaBaZa
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Post by BaBaZa »

Rosie should be a politician with an answer like that........... "I have listened to your concerns regarding hospital closures in your area but I notice you haven't got a driving license and would stronly recommend you get one so you can become a motorist and therefore we can get lots more tax from you and the odd parking fine."
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Just back - choir practice on a Monday - I sing in the Brighton WELSH male voice choir - on the 21st we are singing with the Llanelli LADIES choir MAXIMUM attendance for THAT one!!!!

Anyway - here is Martin Harold's reply (MD of Lion)


Dear John,

Thanks for all your thoughts on The Grumble. We do know about it, as I've known a leading Grumbler, John Ranes GCF, for many years. If I'm honest, I've always felt that a forum with the name The Grumble might be perceived as starting from a negative viewpoint.
(tell it to 6000 registered members Martin) We are also aware of the Estlite forum.

As a specialist supplier, we are very interested to see these forums for framers and galleries develop. We don't agree with everything said on them, but that is what you would expect.

We are never sure how our company should be involved in the forums, yet we recognise that we often learn something from them. One problem we have is that we are generally so busy that we have little free time to browse the forums regularly. Our current policy is to remain on the sidelines and offer practical help where possible.

If anyone involved in the forums came to us with any special proposal, then we would, of course, be happy to consider it. One thing I might propose to my colleagues that we mention the site references to the two main forums in the next edition of our catalogue.

We note with interest your comment about training. Lion takes a booth at the WCAF show in Las Vegas and we were interested to see that in January this year, over 900 framers and gallery owners had signed up to enjoy numerous different classes which had been organised there. It was observed at a recent meeting of the FATG Court that no similar classes are currently offered at UK framing shows.

With best regards, Martin
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

Thanks John
What an interesting reply from Martin and of course LIONS in Birmingham is a test centre for the FATG.

Good to see though that he recognises the value of these forums AND willing to mention them in their official paperwork.

Well done
John GCF
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Merlin Framers wrote:
A meaningful qualification. excuse me to who? 90% plus of the public do not even know the FATG exist let alone any qualification that is not recognised by any educational body.

Fine Art Trade Guild

Professional Picture Framers Association


Fine Art Trade Guild

Professional Picture Framers Association


Fine Art Trade Guild

Professional Picture Framers Association


Fine Art Trade Guild

Professional Picture Framers Association


Fine Art Trade Guild

Professional Picture Framers Association

To the man on the street, which one tells you that this frame shop may know what they are about regards framing?

Duuuh!
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

............. and here is my final straw-grabbing email to Rosie Sumner - I'll send it tomorrow evening incase anyone here wants to add or delete anything etc etc.

If you feel you could add more or put things more tactfully/temptingly - then please do. The email address is ROSIE@fineart.co.uk

Dear Rosie Sumner,

Thank you for your reply to my email.

Did you click on and read the link to the UK Framers' Forum which now has views of over 2500 on this subject?

To answer your email - I am indeed a qualified framer, I have TWO sets of letters after my name - i.e. BFA (hons) (Best Framer in Angmering - honest) and SGF (Supreme Grumbler Framer)

The first set of letters is of course meaningless to the man on the street, so is the second, but the second DOES have something in common with the letters 'GCF' - they only mean something to those within the trade.

But a lot that have those letters (SGF) after their name also have GCF and/or CPF/MCPF as well.

I am also qualified by experience - I have been a retali framer for 10 years and run a shop with 5 members of staff, with little or no help from the FATG - but I do know what goes on within it.

My basic level of framing starts above the first three of yours - I have just ONE upgrade to beat your 'conservation level' and that is UV glass, but I use Artcare boards AS STANDARD and have done for a long time, so my basic level does not exist within yours. You cannot have a level like mine - it would upset those that support - nay RUN the FATG!

Regards the GCF qualification - as far as I am concerned this would be a good test for my employees, maybe. For me - the work you test is bread and butter stuff - it would do nothing to improve my personal skills and even less than that for my annual turnover.

I do not need to 'Try it and see'

But could I suggest that you embrace the power of the internet and 'try it and see' regards the UK Framers Forum. This was the intention of my initial email.

I do not need to spend 'so much time' on internet framers' forums to get answers - it is INSTANT, and I would add that I GIVE more advice on the UK framers forum than I ask for and the same is true even on the Grumble, which is massive.

On these forums advice can be asked on strange framing problems and within hours, or even minutes, advice from REAL experts is given, even complete with photographs.

I think that you fail to see the potential of the UK Framers Forum - there are potential FATG members there. I for example (an ex member of the FATG) would join you if I had a local branch - but my nearest is just too far away for a brief meeting after work.

I have a large enough premises even to HOST branch meetings - or even start up a new branch and, apart from talks and demos from guest speakers/demonstrators, I am more than capable of giving demos on such things as needlwork framing and washlines MYSELF - Why are you unaware of this potential?

I think the FATG is already getting left behind - TPB and some suppliers are joining in. Please read the link to the UK Framers' forum that I sent you - register and stand up and be counted.

Regards

John Turner BFA (hons) SGF
Sam Cook
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Post by Sam Cook »

Hi Everyone

Having just logged on to see what new topics are being discussed it's good to see that the FATG is as usual providing a lively debate!

As an equipment supplier I have to admit to being more a broswer than a contributor, although this is usually because the topics are not something that I can offer specific advice on. I agree with Ricky @ Mainline that the forum should be a usefull tool for framers and suppliers alike, I am quite conscious of not wanting to sound like I am using the forum to give people the 'hard sell' but I would always encourage feedback both positive and negative as I believe it is the best way to progress our knowledge and products. (By the way we have advertised the forum in our newsletter before!)

At the risk of showing I don't have the polished 'politician' patter we have been members of the FATG for many years, and we do ask the question each year when we pay the fee 'what are we getting for our money?'. We want to support a trade association as it should be a positive way to join the industry together, I guess the question is do you try and change the existing organisation to better represent it's members or break away to form a new group. I would personally think it would be a shame for the Guild to carry on loosing it's popularity when it has the opportunity to modernise itself, but I can completely understand everyones frustrations with it.

The fact that the word 'Framer' is not mentioned in any magasines or association is rather ironic - as a humble machinery supplier we do get the feeling that we are lower down the pecking order than the larger 'Fine Art' suppliers. Please don't think that if a supplier advertises with the magasines then they are only loyal to them and will agree with their line of thinking - we pay for the advertising after all, and if we can get better value for money elsewhere ie. by sponsoring a forum, then it is certainly something we would consider.

So to get back to the orignal point of all this and how we can raise the profile of the forum I would suggest that there are maybe 3 things to try:
1- Send an e-mail to suppliers to make sure they all know about it and to encourage them to put it in their newsletters (I know some companies already monitor the site but a group e-mail is a quick and cheap !)
2- Talk to the people at PB. They are planning on setting up a regular e-mail newsletter type circular, I believe they are planning on having links to suppliers own websites where it is relevant so they might be willing to have links to here.
3- At the risk of being shouted at - try to talk to the FATG!! I can see that your efforts are being somewhat deflected, but they have taken on a new member of staff whose main role is to increase members (presumably becasue the numbers are falling), so they must recognise there is a need to do something to attract new members or get back the members they have lost along the way!

I hope some of this rambling may be usefull - I know you lot aren't shy about expressing opions so feel free to comment!

Sam Cook
sarah
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Re: Reply from FATG M.D.

Post by sarah »

Regarding RS's reply to robo: -


Bless. she hasn't a clue does she. How insulting can she be. What she is saying is, in a not so polite fashion, we're all a bit dim and if we did the GCF qualification we wouldn't need this forum. Has she not noticed that the forum was set up by a guild commended framer, it is contributed to by guild framers, and in fact some branch masters.
sarah
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Post by sarah »

Hey Sam. Thank you for your contribution very much appreciated. Although you think you may have nothing specific to contribute you can always give you're tuppence worth. Also there's the after hours section why not tell us some interesting anecdotes, or even let us know the latest things going on with framers corner.

Look forward to more posts.
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Have sent email No 2 to Rosie Sumner.

No more emails or calls today from other recipients of email No1, but some PMs from forum members.

Well, if Rosie reads all this and still joins in she can win some kudos back, because we have gone one stage further than bashing a new poster - we've bashed one before she gets here!!!!

Was talking to Mrs Robo earlier about a trade organistation/magazine for framers. As she said - most start with a tabloid and a small committee and end up with a nice glossy A4 magazine and several committees. Then they have qualifications and standards and codes of conduct - blah de blah. Then they may decide to start an internet framer to framer forum ........................

Well, maybe the beginnings of a new trade organistion is right here - but we're doing it bum around fizzog - internet forum first..... who knows!

What would we call ourselves? If we had a magazine, what would it be called When do you think we could take a stall at the Spring Fair ..... "ROLL UP - ROLL UP, JOIN THE FRAMERS' ............? ........ don't worry about them other peeps "Fine ART whatever - you're one of us!"

How would we carry out testing for our framer's qualification and what would we call it?

(How about 'BFA' - Best Framer Award) :D
Dermot

Post by Dermot »

As well as having the PPFA in Australia they also have their own PPFA Forum
http://www.forum.ppfaaustralia.org/

I’m sure that John could provide a password (if it is considered necessary) only area on this site for members of any new organisation that would be focused only on framers

One guy in the main started this a few years ago by going to one of the trade shows (the only one) and handing out applications to join the PPFA………………I know that the guys at the PPFA in the US would be only to pleased to help…..

By going with the PPFA you link to the “Professional Picture Framers Association” and you certification as a CPF® (CPF® is a registered business trade mark) “Certified Picture Framer” would be a recognised education qualification….

http://www.ppfa.com/ click on the “Trial Membership” link at the upper right hand side of the PPFA site they have links for Australia, New Zealand, and Canada asides from the US, they will accept an trial application using the US form http://www.pmai.org/webppfa/PDF2006/PPFA06Trail.pdf US$50.00 from this part of the world…….... they will add a link for this part of the world

Robo (John) Ormond would be able to give you some details of how they got things started in Australia …… this is a link to one of the items the guys down under produced when they were getting things off the ground http://www.ormondsframing.com/data009/V ... %20ppfa%22

In addition to the PPFA site some of the chapters around the US also have their own local web site…

And here is a link to PPFA members in the UK http://www.pmai.org/webppfa/memberdirec ... Country=X3

One serious consideration with any new organisation is that you should use conference calling to have some of the meetings that way people would not always have to make long journeys to attend every meeting…….and as the cost of video conferencing is falling this should be also one of the options to be used for meetings…………OK neither options are as good as the real meeting never the less they have their place in modern communication just as the internet has and this site …..all and every option of communication needs to be under review regularly
Framing Norah
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Post by Framing Norah »

In an interesting and thought-provoking post Sam Cook wrote:I can see that your efforts are being somewhat deflected, but they have taken on a new member of staff whose main role is to increase members (presumably because the numbers are falling)...
If they were to come here, they will get loads of advice on where they have gone wrong, but can we give them any tips on how they could up their membership? What would it take to entice the non-members here into the fold?
FN
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

I think I have said before what I would like to see the FATG do - a lot would be too much to ask.

But one thing they could do that would impress me would be to come and see me, and others, members and non members - get their hands dirty.

Find out what people are up to SEE what the general state of the trade is, find out why non members have not joined, get feedback from existing members - eye to eye on THEIR patch.

They can send representitives to N Zealand, but not down the M23 to me (etc)
Roboframer

Post by Roboframer »

Dermot,

Thanks for those links - a UK branch of the PPFA?

That is definitely worth looking in to - a lot of leg work already done!

I feel an email coming on!
WelshFramer
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Post by WelshFramer »

Well, I'm mostly a lurker here. I started trading as a full-time framer in November last year -- a bit more experience and I'll maybe have something to contribute.

I did consider joining the FATG but it seemed rather like paying for something and getting nothing in return. I have all the work I can manage and, as others have said, I doubt any of my customers would know a FATG qualification if they saw one. (I do know I was recently asked to reframe a couple of paintings framed by a FATG member because they'd been done so badly -- including trimming a watercolour to fit a frame!).

All my work where possible* is done to my definition of conservation standard or above. So, for example, I only use conservation or museum quality board where possible. If I have to use whitecore (because the colour isn't otherwise available) then I use a barrier card underneath it. But I don't want to be told I can't use flexipoints to hold the back on!

* I say 'where possible' because it seems to me the FATG's standards just don't cover things such as giclée prints on canvas mounted into floater frames or wrapped canvases.

I subscribed to ABT last year but I don't think I'll renew (got a very curt renewal letter saying I wouldn't receive the next issue unless I paid immediately). PFM is so much more informative. It's just a shame that it's American and some stuff (mostly product news) doesn't translate.

So, I for one, will save my money and continue to learn by lurking here and on the Grumble.
Mike Cotterell
Neuadd Bwll Framing

http://www.welshframing.com
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