High St Framers Disappearing!

[Framerpicture]

ah come one 50 bucks an hr for being the owner, runinng the business, and the stress and hrs thaat go with it

i charge that an hr for my time

Apologies,I misunderstood I thought you were clearing 50 bucks an hour (which on a 40 hr week is over 100k per annum)

I suppose it depends on how big your overheads are.

As of matter of interest, you mention you haver a full order book (Glad to see The Celtic Tiger still roaring for you )
but how far ahead can you see?
We've only ever got about two weeks work in hand and with 8 staff to pay it can be a bit of a bumpy ride sometimes!

[stcstc]

i have work booked in till mid september at the moment, now its not full till then but still grand

mind i know lots of framers here that are struggling

[Ryan Montgomery]

Just hope your local framer doesn't start taking photos and open a photo studio because he has spare time and space

It's an open market and it does happen!

I find that the above a little belittling. Obviously being new to the industry you still think that picture framing is just fixing four bits of wood together, well if that is the case good luck because I think you will need it.

I don't mean to cause offense, but if I rang you or any of the framers on this forum and said I'm going to send you a rolled up print in a tube that needs drymounted and then framed in a double window mount in arqadia mount xxx with arqadia moulding in xxx frame it wouldn't be a problem. I'm aware that it's more than just fixing four bits of wood together. Design, colour, style and preservation techniques etc play a huge role but my point is that it can be done without ever meeting the client.

Again I hope that I'm not belittling anything you or anyone else does, I was only making the point to show that buying habits have changed which is one of the reasons we see less independent high street shops of any sort.

I am half way there!

Some plywood fixed to the floor with make your paper last twice as long, even better is a little bit of wooden flooring edged to where the paper will go as it'll give you another shooting option & you can easily run wires along it to stop the kiddies from tripping. It also sets the area as 'shooting area' which helps keep children enclosed.

[Jonny2morsos]

I mostly rent out the studio to photographers who don't have their own, camera clubs and models whose photographers travel to them. We have folding tables and stacking chairs so my wife can use it for teaching art. Occasionally we have small exhibitions, open studio events etc.

I don't have much time to use it myself as the framing keeps me busy.

[Graysalchemy]

I don't mean to cause offense, but if I rang you or any of the framers on this forum and said I'm going to send you a rolled up print in a tube that needs drymounted and then framed in a double window mount in arqadia mount xxx with arqadia moulding in xxx frame it wouldn't be a problem. I'm aware that it's more than just fixing four bits of wood together. Design, colour, style and preservation techniques etc play a huge role but my point is that it can be done without ever meeting the client.

Sorry but you have and you obviously don't have a clue what a framer does and the wider skills we have to have in order to run a successful business which includes many other sectors not just photographers.

[kev@frames]

pal of mine is a professional photographer - he makes a living selling landscape photos.
he took me out with him for a day working.
we start at 8am, finish at 9pm. it included more than 150 miles of driving, about twenty miles of walking and hiking over inaccesible countryside, moors, waiting for clouds, rushing to catch the sun, and we get home weary and exhausted, and with ears like pork scratchings from the sun.
thirteen hours of hard graft, to be fair, and just one "possible" photo out of it.
and the next day he goes and does it all over again. Relentlessly taking photographs.
and as anyone knows, landscape photography is a hard game to make a living in.

I used to think he pulled up by the side of the road in his car, stuck the camera out of the window, and snapped himself an "earner" every day.

photography and framing have one thing in common: from the outside it looks like any baboon can do it, and its money for old rope, and they both look like cheap and easy businesses to get into... but doing either of them right takes more skill and determination that the casual observer sees.

To be honest I would not like to be in the photography game, not with the constant stream of new starts and competitors always chomping at your business.

Four pieces of wood, anyone

[Ryan Montgomery]

Sorry but you have and you obviously don't have a clue what a framer does and the wider skills we have to have in order to run a successful business which includes many other sectors not just photographers.

All I can do is apologize for any offense caused and assure you that it was in no way intentional. As for not having a clue, maybe not. My only real interest in framing lies around my primary business which is in the end Photography but I do understand that there is more to it than my own needs and interests.

Anyhow, I apologize again, not just to you but to anyone that I may have offended.

[Steve N]

J2M

That's a great space to rent out

[Not your average framer]

It is certainly true that quite a few high street framers have gone in Devon. I don't know why, but we've lost a good many apparently solid well established businesses.

A high percentage of these were FATG members. Not that it means anything, but it does show that these were well established businesses, which I would have assumed would be better able to survive a recession than most.

[JamesC]

I think framing is fairly easy in, easy out (but harder than it looks to do well) so a lot will close in any given year, especially as it seems like largely an older man's game. As it usually just pays the owner's wage, it's hard to sell it on for anything much as anyone with a job would not usually want to buy another one. Anyone without a job can set up in the garage for £2000 or so which may be all they can afford.

Anybody thinking of giving up also will also find it is easier psychologically in a recession - you have a ready made excuse so it's seen as less of a failure by others - not that it would bother me too much but it's a fact of life. Lots of people fancy a change/new challenge too - especially if sales have dropped a bit. Maybe at the moment the flow of newcomers is less than normal as everyone is frightened to move. Then again a few redundancy packages can help...

I suppose expensive bespoke framing is a bit of a luxury item - and it's at these fringes where the recession hits hardest - unless your client list are too affluent to be affected. That's not going to be the case for most.

I don't think GCF counts for that much really - if anything many of the more established operators don't need the accreditation any more and have given up on it. I'd see it as as much a nooby thing to do when you are trying to prove your name.

[retropic]

The down turn also coincides with the government mentioning we were back in recession.

The law of unintended consequences!

There was a piece on the news this evening about how customers are deserting the high street. I can't remember which channel it was on, but there was a reporter in Havant which has row upon row of empty retail space. It does seem that the consumer is finding different ways to shop. When I walked down the Strand in London the other day I was amazed how many shops are now either Costa, Cafe Nero, Starbucks or O2 and T Mobile stores.

I have a place in Normandy. Over there, some of the smaller town centres have become ghost towns to the extent that the Mayors will buy up shops and let people have them rent free for a year, or charge a peppercorn rent (my local estate agent paid €100 a month for a year a good sized shop. It's now increased to €250 a month, but that's in a tiny village). In a small (pop. 8,000), rather delightful medieval town many of the timber framed shops have gone and the windows covered with Vitrine Virtuelle: vinyl photographs showing what the shop was in its heyday.

Here in London however, a smallish shop on the outskirts of a reasonably affluent part of the city is available for £12,000pa. This is despite there being at least 6 shops available to let in the same road. Even in Thamesmead (which is a pretty awful place and coincidentally where some scenes for A Clockwork Orange were shot) they local council want £10,000pa for a shop under a hideous concrete 60s brutalist flats.

[Gesso&Bole]

Interesting point about asking rents.

One of the problems we have in this country, is the fact that the Freeholds of much of the 'High St' property is owned by 'investment funds' of various sorts. The value of their holdings are calculated on a multiplier of rental values. In turn, bank lending decisions, and investment decisions are made based on the capital value. So, we end up with a situation where it is better for the freeholder to have the property empty, with a rental price-tag of £25,000 pa rather than let it to a paying tenant for £12,500 pa, because if he does so, his property has been notionally de-valued by 50% and his bank will probably foreclose because there is not now enough equity, or the investors in the fund will see big losses.

It is true that High Streets are changing, and customers are buying more on line. But if you remember years ago we thought that with new technology everybody would be working from home by now, and offices wouldn't be required. Granted, huge numbers of people DO now work remotely, but generally human nature dictates that people prefer to interact physically with others. I think that the same will be the case with the High Streets. Although there is a lot of turmoil to come yet, I can see City Centres becoming more sociable places with fewer homogenous chain stores (they will do more trade online) more bars restaurants and coffee shops, AND a place for INTERESTING and INDIVIDUAL retail businesses, such as Galleries and Framers, and Antique shops that will make the City Centre a more enjoyable proposition. Rents will have to come down though!

[Not your average framer]

I've also become aware of increasing carriage charges. One suppliers used to not charge extra if an order had to be packed as two packages, but now there is an additional carriage charge for the second package.

It's something we have to live with, so in the future I will order less often, so that I can place orders which exceed the carriage free order value.

The current down turn phase will yet again mean further adjustments for all of us and we all need to be ready to do the things we need to do.

[Jonny2morsos]

In a lot of foreign countries people with money live in the city centres where they work, shop and socialise. Mainly in this country the reverse seems to be true and "inner city" is associated with social deprivation.

[Jamesnkr]

Set up cost to be a framer? Morso £350; underpinner £150; compressor £50 mount cutter £70. Tab gun £20. Total £650 - and a spare bedroom.

And you're off. The capital costs for some decent professional equipment are pretty low.

[CalicoFraming]

£650 to get set up?! I set myself up in the last 10 months and it cost a lot more than that. And working from a spare bedroom - that's me, exactly - I' also now in the bedroom we actually use (bubble wrap roll lives there), the living room (obviously that's where I keep the Morso) and even the bathroom where my painting stuff gets washed and dried. I did try to do it much more cheaply in the first instance - cheap mountcutter, table top hand operated underpinner, hammer and nails, mitre guillotine - and it became apparent very quickly that I couldn't do the quality of work I thought I needed to and nor could I do it very quickly. And now I've got some proper equipment I've filled up the flat, it's clear that if I'm going to want to produce frames as a business I'm going to need premises. Had a look at what's available today and found a great little shop in London on a thriving high street - rent: £28,000!!!

[Ryan Montgomery]

It costs less if you buy chop!

[Amrit]

As a newby I found this a really interesting read.

From ppl setting up their own businesses from their sheds/homes to customers buying and making their own frames. Guys, it seems to me this is a tough business to earn a living from. I've had my own furniture shop in the past, and after building a business turning over £8k a week and hiring 3 staff I wasn't able to take a wage to pay my own mortgage (my rent was £30k, my council rates £18k, then VAT, bills, staff wages. Lucky I was living with my parents at the time). If you think the framing business is dire you should check out the furniture industry. The stuff is so big you need a lot of space. So that's the weapon in the framing industry. You don't need a lot of space. Profit margins are very high in comparison to other retail markups that charge typically 18% (it is actually 100% in the case of furniture but this is still not enough to cover costs). The amount of beds I've delivered to 3rd floor premises without a lift, it's been physically hard.

So the pros? Look at your mark ups plus the fact that your stock never goes out of date. The biggest problems are that any person can set up himself from his own garage. So what to do?

Well, can I make a suggestion? You need a high street presence. Not necessarily a high street shop. Yes, times are changing but a smarter way of doing things would be to offer your services and go 50-50 with shop keepers or whatever you want. So make a sample pack with velcro. The shopkeepers can do the measurements. You collect the orders and return them framed. Furthermore you only do this for shops that are convenient to you.

As for those garage people (like me), they won't be bothered for the business running around. They might do their own stuff, but then they need to do that to survive in their own fields.

And Ryan Montgomery, I wouldn't worry about offending anyone, you certainly didn't offend me, these days we're all too easily offended. It's just your opinion you see. What you think of me is none of my business

[prospero]

High Street Framers are always going to be in a sticky situation unless they have other strings to their bow. Very few just do framing. There are any number of complementary lines of income. Selling art. Gifts. Greetings cards...... If you are paying mega-bucks for a High Street presence, it makes sense to use the space to it's max.

[A3DFramer]

When I first started of I framed 3D craftwork, which I traveled around the craft and antique fairs with in addition to a fringe high street premise, my work shop was adjacent to an antique market near to a town centre. The craftworkers I framed for were usually cash strapped so a traded goods and presented their work in the way I best thought suited my customers. I found that my profit margins over the nominal buy in price was often way in excess of normal mark ups. This was an edge that I used for a good number of years as I established a more regular client base.