High St Framers Disappearing!

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Jonny2morsos
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High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Jonny2morsos »

I had an enquiry yesterday from a photographer not exactly on my doorstep wanting to buy some mount board and he was bemoaning the fact there are no High St framers left in our area he could go into for supplies.

He wanted to buy mount board cut in to 20 x 16 pieces so I gave him a reasonaable price to make a mark up and cover my time in cutting full sheets to size.

So he has been back to me today to tell me he can buy a relatively a small quantity of full sheets at trade price which is obviously better than my price.

And he wonders where all the suppliers have gone!!
Graysalchemy

Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Graysalchemy »

I am sure one of wholesalers would oblige and open an account, and I bet they are wondering why framers are closing too.
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by strokebloke »

...... a relatively a small quantity of full sheets at trade price which is obviously better than my price.
He may be back John. When he has to store his own sheets - cut his own sheets - dispose of the wastage (& maybe cut his fingers into the bargain :giggle: ) he may appreciate why the difference in price, and decide that whilst he's cutting mats, he could be photographing/processing, which is presumably where he makes his money.
I wouldn't hold your breath, but ...... :)
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Ryan Montgomery
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Ryan Montgomery »

It's an odd one, for a bunch of people that preach that the product is much more than the sum of it's parts (paper) they (we :D ) are often the first to scream HOW MUCH when it comes to frames.

I can't lie and say that making the frames myself isn't just about having control over the finished product, the savings I will make in a couple of months will more than pay for the start up costs.
stcstc

Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by stcstc »

well the savings are not as simple as it may seem though

First your time still costs money, like if you go take pictures for a client you charge for your time

its also like said above, cost of storage, wasteage etc etc

and also building a fund for machine maintenace and replacement
Roboframer

Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Roboframer »

I could buy a great big baking spud for about 8p ........... and if I went to the Pick Your Own farm down the road that would be about 5p ...... and you want to charge me £1:30 for a bag of chips I could easily get out of that single spud? Are you having a laugh!
Graysalchemy

Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Graysalchemy »

Lets face it photographers are having just a hard time as us. I would never dream of having a portrait of my kids taken I have a montage of their picture which I have taken instead.

What comes around goes around :giggle: :giggle:
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Jonny2morsos »

Realising I was not going to get any business I have directed him towards the 500 x 400mm Colourmount boards Lion offer (p42 in catalogue). It is actually cheaper than buying full sheets and cutting to size and the three white shades are conservation.

I am now just hoping no one in our local camera club spots this one!
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Ryan Montgomery »

stcstc wrote:well the savings are not as simple as it may seem though

First your time still costs money, like if you go take pictures for a client you charge for your time

its also like said above, cost of storage, wasteage etc etc

and also building a fund for machine maintenace and replacement
I'm not trying to down play the costs faced by framers, it's much the same as with photography (apart from the wastage and storage). My point was that for our individual circumstances we have the space in the studio for both a separate display area / sales area as well as storage and a workshop. These areas were being paid for but going to waste simply because we had no need for them as a part of the photography business. For us it made a very good investment to bring the framing in house, we would have control of the finished product and as well as making significant savings we would also have a new revenue stream.

This is all just looking at it from a business point of view, I also enjoy it! After working through a few thousand photographs or designing a wedding album it's nice to be able to get up and work with your hands for a bit, it clears my mind and helps me to go back to the computer refreshed.
stcstc

Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by stcstc »

sorry i wasnt saying there are no savings

i am saying once you cost your labour into it, the savings are not as big as you think. and if you are using not pro kit the savings are less, as it takes longer

say it takes you an hr to make a frame, labour at approx 50 bucks, suddenly eats into those savings
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Ryan Montgomery »

stcstc wrote:sorry i wasnt saying there are no savings

i am saying once you cost your labour into it, the savings are not as big as you think. and if you are using not pro kit the savings are less, as it takes longer

say it takes you an hr to make a frame, labour at approx 50 bucks, suddenly eats into those savings
Very true, in the summer when we are up to the eyes with weddings and portraits we will just have to go to our local framer but in the winter months we can have a fair bit of down time in the studio that could be put to good use.
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by birdman »

That's probably true Ryan, but will the local framers still be there when you need them? Which is surely the question posed by this thread.

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Graysalchemy

Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Graysalchemy »

Took the words right out of my mouth. :clap: :clap:

However on a more serious note the problem is not photographers doing their own framing, it is that we are not getting footfall on our high streets. The internet, out of town shopping complexes with free parking, etc etc have more to do with it and perhaps a lot of high street framers are their own worst enemy.

I had a high street presence up untill 8 years ago and we had seen the decline of the high street for 12 years prior to that, long before the internet and the Trafford centre (which decimated our town).

It is going to take a lot more effort by the powers that be than a bit of window dressing by celebrity retail guru to sort out the problems of the high street if they can be sorted. Perhaps government may be better looking at what town centres can be used for instead of retail.
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Framerpicture »

stcstc wrote:
say it takes you an hr to make a frame, labour at approx 50 bucks, suddenly eats into those savings
50 bucks an hour! Got any jobs going Steve :D Even with the recent strethening of the pound I'll be disapperaing from our high street and heading for Dublin!

I'm not sure how others are finding things at the moment but after a succesful Easter its gone very flat here. We are very tourist driven and there's just not many here. The down turn also coincides with the government mentioning we were back in recession.

I've always had a problem with wholesalers supplying people who aren't bona fida trade, after all, anybody can buy from Lion for the same price as us and they only need to spend £30.00 + vat.
I lost a customer recently, he was only buying only 20 frames a year but has now bought morso, mountcutter and underpinner for £300 at a recievers auction and has found it increadibly easy to buy small amounts of materials to make frames.
Its quite possible I could now have a competitor who will work from home, so pay no rates, and be able to buy materials for simalair or in Lions case, identical prices to what I would have to pay.
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Ryan Montgomery
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Ryan Montgomery »

birdman wrote:That's probably true Ryan, but will the local framers still be there when you need them? Which is surely the question posed by this thread.

Rolf
A good point, but it's not like there isn't going to be framers. Framing as a trade will remain. It's the same as Photography, every other person with a camera and photoshop now calls themselves a professional photographer. Photographers are finding it harder but photography as a profession is thriving.

The big difference between photography and framing is that for photography you have to see a photographer at some point in the process. Framers provide a product that can be bought online and it's a service that can be offered without ever meeting the customer. I'm in the process of building our framing website for custom framing, it's taking bloody ages though.
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Jonny2morsos »

As a framer have you ever tried getting a trade price list from a photographic supplier?

I have and it is pretty much impossible or at least it was for the ones I tried.

One of my photographer customers asked me if I could get them slip in mounts to save her having to use multiple suppliers. Another wanted me to supply frames the same as a big supplier to the photographic market who use all Arqadia products. When I enquired neither company would give me a trade price list unless I was a photographer with a business address. However one of my friends at the camera club who does a few weddings in their spare time did have a price list from this supplier.
stcstc

Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by stcstc »

ah come one 50 bucks an hr for being the owner, runinng the business, and the stress and hrs thaat go with it

i charge that an hr for my time

and charge more for the other stuff i do like visitor centres

and my order book is jammed solid

i guess it depends on what your market is

i dont aim to be jack of all trades, i do what i dod, and no more. for example if someone comes in here with a textile to frame i will send them to someone else

framers always attempt to do everything, and spend way to long figuring out how to do it, instead just send it to someone else and do stuff that you know and can make good money from

turning away work or sending it to someone else isnt a sin, its just good business

as for trade photographic suppliers, there are some that are a nightmare, but thats the same in any business
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Steve N »

Just hope your local framer doesn't start taking photos and open a photo studio because he has spare time and space :Slap:
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Graysalchemy »

Ryan Montgomery wrote:The big difference between photography and framing is that for photography you have to see a photographer at some point in the process. Framers provide a product that can be bought online and it's a service that can be offered without ever meeting the customer. I'm in the process of building our framing website for custom framing, it's taking bloody ages though.
I find that the above a little belittling. Obviously being new to the industry you still think that picture framing is just fixing four bits of wood together, well if that is the case good luck because I think you will need it.
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Re: High St Framers Disappearing!

Post by Jonny2morsos »

Steve N wrote:Just hope your local framer doesn't start taking photos and open a photo studio because he has spare time and space :Slap:
I am half way there!
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Just the lighting to sort.
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