Plastic mouldings revisited.

[kev@frames]

I know many of my collegues frown upon plastic mouldings (emafyl, polcore etc). But I have noticed that some of these nowadays are as good looking and as nice a finish as plenty of timber mouldings, and there seems to be very little customer resistance in the lower to mid price ranges.

Just a thought here - - we've been selling plastics as a budget option for a long time, (10 or 12 years) based on the thinking that because they are cheaper they must be inferior. we just keep a range of about half a dozen or so, the usual suspects (3 strains of 68/01 lookalikes, and some flat wide stuff in limed timber, floorboard look, and a fat pewter and a brushed gold), and seem to be using more than ever.

[osgood]

Synthetic mouldings have been selling well for the past few years for me. I only sell those that have an acceptable appearance and don't look "plastic".

They are very good profit makers as they are inexpensive to buy and can be sold at a bigger mark up, but at a lower price than an equivalent looking wood moulding.

[ross]

We only have 4 synthetic mouldings on our wall at present - I guess on the basis that it is not as good as timber

I find it interesting that 2 framers at opposite ends of the world have found a place to use synthetics - question - do you place any limit on the size a frame can be when a customer selects a synthetic moulding

Do you display your synthetic samples in a separate section of your display wall or are they mixed through the range

Ross

[patrickleeland]

Jim Miller on the Grumble is possible going to teach a class on this. I am very interested in learning more about these. I tend to think junk, but I want to learn. The finishes I have seen as of late look good, so what the heck.


pl

[RobinC]

I added a comment on a post about wire, I did think about starting a new topic but I was busy. I am currently using 2 mouldings from Lion that look as good as some wooden mouldings - better than many. There is very little waste, the finish is consistant, they cut and pin easily and they are less expensive than their wood equivalent. In the past we have used plastic for budget priced items, but we are using some of the newer mouldings on some limited editions. With many publishers selling the prints mounted only we see these mouldings as a way to regain some of the lost margins. It is early days but so far they have been well accepted.

Robin

[osgood]

We only have 4 synthetic mouldings on our wall at present - I guess on the basis that it is not as good as timber

I find it interesting that 2 framers at opposite ends of the world have found a place to use synthetics - question - do you place any limit on the size a frame can be when a customer selects a synthetic moulding

Do you display your synthetic samples in a separate section of your display wall or are they mixed through the range

Ross

Ross,
What do you mean by "not as good as timber". I always understood that "good" is related to quality. The good ones are just not as plentiful. These days the quality of many wood mouldings is so poor that I will not buy them. It is exactly the same with synthetic mouldings. In fact the general quality of wood mouldings is on a steep downhill slide and I am amazed at what some factories are producing. Some of them should close down and do the world a big favour.

Size limit can depend on what the frame is used for. If it is used on a piece that will travel to exhibitions by courier, then you have to be careful with the thinner ones. There are some synthetic mouldings that are way too thin for their width, so don't use them on anything but small frames or don't buy them. If a customer has his/her heart set on a particular synthetic moulding and I think it will not be rigid enough, I glue and staple a 6mm thick strip of wood on the back that is not as wide as the moulding and this stiffens it up nicely.(and cheaply)

All of my moulding samples are arranged in colour and style groups no matter what they are made from. Customers cannot tell which are the synthetic samples. However I do explain to them what they are. I believe in keeping my customers informed.

[kev@frames]

re size: this can be an issue. tend to try and limit the size on narrower plastics for two reasons:
screws dont seem to hold as well on d rings etc, and of course a bendy rim if picked up bythe top (by the customer) can come way.
so sometimes we run a drop of hot melt between the backing and the rim

[evanstheframe]

I have never used these moldings due to people saying they are cheap and nasty. However I have been looking at them as samples from Arqadia (Artcore) as of late and some of them look very good. I have used wood mouldings that never seem to match up on size from one delivery to another. I am told that size on the plastics never seem to change.
I do have a few questions though for those of you who use them before I decide to give them a try.

1 Do you cut them on a Morso and are the results OK?
2 Does cutting them (if on a Morso) effect the blades?
3 Do they tend to warp and open at the corners when frames are hung in a warm room? The reason I ask this is many of these frames are bought cheaply at stores such as Wilkinsons. I lose alot due to people buying these ready made frames. However because they are mass produced they always have bad open jointed corners. Being plastic I thought that room temps may cause joints to open more.
4 Do they need glueing, if so what glue?
5 Last one. Do you join them using your underpinner? (If yes, what wedges do you use).

Right all that said if I get good feedback it may be worth giving one or two a try.

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

Jim Miller on the Grumble is possible going to teach a class on this. I am very interested in learning more about these. I tend to think junk, but I want to learn. The finishes I have seen as of late look good, so what the heck....

This is a great subject...

I think that Jim might be exploring this subject for a program as North American framer's explore options in light of regaining market share with alternative retail framing sources: Big Boxes, Chains, Home Decor Stores.

In the U.S. (as it sounds like in the UK), there is a bit of an "attittude" towards plastic mouldings as used by custom framers. I for one am equally as guilty of selling only wood (timber) mouldings and then wondering how I can lower my price on certain framing jobs to compete with the "other guys".

In my travels around the world, I have noticed that the current acceptance of using plastic is definitely geographical. One South African distributor once told me that 70% of his sales were with this material, while in the U.S. one would typically not find much use in custom (bespoke) frame shops, but usually only in volume shops, and large craft "big box" type stores in their ready-made range.

These discussions always remind me of a comment shared by a respected framer in my town many years ago (long before plastic/synthetic) came on the market to any great degree....

Customer: Is that Oval frame made of wood or plastic?

Framer (Ron): If you need to ask, does it matter?

Keeping an open mind is never a bad idea!

John

[kev@frames]

Yes I have become a bit more open minded about them. I used to regard them merely as a "cheap" option, but Im starting to come round to a different way of thinking.

i find they cut fine on a morso.
we display them mixed in with "regular" frames. (we do tend to group our mouldings in price bands).
they can be glued, pretty much with a !"superglue" type, although some can outgas and leave a white residue on the glass if assembled right after gluing. or use a special glue (emafyl glue). Play it by ear. Many will not require gluing and wedges will stack very well in them.

apart from the price, a couple of comments (staff have said these too)

they are consistent. No problem matching pieces, no defects, uniform profile from batch to batch. no warping or twisting. no knots. join well.

the canadian "copies" of the simons emafyl patterns are far better quality than the simons product cut better, join better. from Mainline Mouldings in the UK.

Drawbacks- strength can be an issue in narrower profiles. The fact that plastic is seen as less "quality" and less "environmental". on some (particularly the 68/01 pattern) you may need to make a different adjustment to the morso left fence than you use on regular timber mouldings.

[osgood]

kev,
Some of my discoveries:

we display them mixed in with "regular" frames. (we do tend to group our mouldings in price bands).

Many years ago I found that organising mouldings into colour groups is a great idea. If the cheaper mouldings are mixed with the more expensive ones, you will definitely sell more of the mid range and expensive mouldings.

they can be glued, pretty much with a !"superglue" type, although some can outgas and leave a white residue on the glass if assembled right after gluing. or use a special glue (emafyl glue). Play it by ear. Many will not require gluing and wedges will stack very well in them.

I find that superglue is very good. I would never sell any frame that wasn't glued. Use the superglue sparingly and keep it off the top 25% of the gluing surface which will prevent it from spilling onto the finished surface where it can do damage.

they are consistent. No problem matching pieces, no defects, uniform profile from batch to batch. no warping or twisting. no knots. join well.

A couple of years ago, defects were uncommon, but things have changed a little. There are some that have small (2-3mm) depressions in the surface, which is a real pain. Some others sometimes have a tiny scratch here and there in the finish. I usually delete these from my range.
They certainly don't have humungous twists or knots though.

My opinion is that if you select carefully, you can increase your profits by selling these mouldings.

[kev@frames]

I presume yours in Australia are domestic product, or asian origin?? I wonder how many of them are common globally?

we tend to stick to the price bands, and sort of group the colours within that.
we do have some plastic mouldings in the higher price groups, though.

It depends where your starting point with the customer is. In our area we have the highest cost of living but the lowest wages in the UK, so the initial question from a customer is invariably "how much"

re the finish - we find it is essential to buy some by the box and keep them in the box to avoid damage.

and dont, whatever you do, drop a bottle of white spirit on a box of plastic moulding .... dont ask..... another horror story. lol. Never mind keeping cups of tea out of the workshop, you would be amazed how far a plastic bottle of white spirit will spread when you drop it and it splits!

[osgood]

I presume yours in Australia are domestic product, or asian origin?? I wonder how many of them are common globally?

They come from many countries around the world. I'm not sure which ones, but I'm pretty sure that none are made in Australia.

It depends where your starting point with the customer is. In our area we have the highest cost of living but the lowest wages in the UK, so the initial question from a customer is invariably "how much"

I think you will find that the question "how much" is common to every custom framing shop in the world, including mine. I get it every day from almost every customer. Your situation is not unique!
By mixing all frames into colour/style groups and not price groups I have proved beyond all doubt that I sell more mid range and expensive mouldings, but don't take my word for it, ask more credible people than me.
By placing your samples in price groups you are handing your customers a way to spend less, on a silver platter. ie. "These are the expensive mouldings and these are the cheap ones"....we all know which ones most customers will be fixing their gaze on!

Some of my groups are:
Black and White, colours, decorator, country classics, formal, rustic, gold, silver, gold ornate, silver ornate, furniture finish and slips.
I try to grade them from top to bottom only by shade - darkest on top, lightest on bottom. This aids in selecting the right frame for the job - by colour and style, not by price!

I was shown this method many years ago and would not go back to the other method for "all the tea in China".

This info is free to anyone wanting to try it, who isn't already using it. In the words of a company that sells tea - "Do try it".

[Roboframer]

I don't like them!

[Not your average framer]

re size: this can be an issue. tend to try and limit the size on narrower plastics for two reasons:
screws dont seem to hold as well on d rings etc, and of course a bendy rim if picked up bythe top (by the customer) can come way.
so sometimes we run a drop of hot melt between the backing and the rim

I'm not a big fan of plastic mouldings, but I somethings buy a few lengths from Venton's when they are on special offer. I too was not that happy with screws not holding so well, but I solved that problem by using 13mm No:8 screws from Lion. They are a lot more chunky, have a much greater degree of thread engagement and feel nice and solid when tight.

They are also very useful in some softer wood mouldings.

[osgood]

I don't like them!

If I remember correctly, you used not to like the dreaded plastic coated wire either, John.
Whooooops, you changed your mind. At least your mind opened on that topic! Well done.

[osgood]

I too was not that happy with screws not holding so well, but I solved that problem by using 13mm No:8 screws from Lion. They are a lot more chunky, have a much greater degree of thread engagement and feel nice and solid when tight.

They are also very useful in some softer wood mouldings.

I have never had a problem with screws not holding. I suppose thats because I have been using that size screw (and larger) in dee rings for over 20 years anyway.
Having been a custom furniture maker for many years, I learned that long, fat screws are very good indeed. Short and thin screws are weak and will strip easily.

[Roboframer]

If I remember correctly, you used not to like the dreaded plastic coated wire either, John.
Whooooops, you changed your mind. At least your mind opened on that topic! Well done.

At least I whispered it!

Oh OK - I wanted to say it from word go - here and on TFG - but I thought this time I'd just be conspicuous by my silence .... fat chance!!

Anyway - didn't say I didn't like coated wire and have said I had not actually tried it or even seen it - not Super SoftStrand.

But I have tried and seen Plastic mouldings - (wrapped MDF too - no thanks) I'm probably a snob but I don't like the feel of them.

I'd prefer them to 'snotwood' but then if a moulding turns up in snotwood form - it's out!

I also see some expensive wood mouldings made from other carp too - e.g. 10ft lengths made up of 20 six inch finger-jointed pieces of varying quality and coloured wood - some of which fall into most of those 20 respective parts when you unwrap them!!

I dunno - but to try and put it into perspective - for me - In this room - a 'study' we have some units from MFI - veneered chip board - self assembly - the veneers even aren't real. I HATE them. They look like what they are - cheap, but more importantly - to me - I know they are

In our dining room we have a solid oak storage/display unit with a bowed glass central unit - it cost us £2500 and you don't have to touch it to know it's quality - you just know, from a distance,

I know plastic mouldings, once gilded/foiled/otherwise finished can 'look' OK but for me it's 'knowing' that it's plastic ................... it's plastic - just the word does it for me. I can't help it!

Ever picked up something that looks like it should be heavy and almost smacked yourself in the face with it 'cause it's lighter than it looks?

I know you get wood mouldings that have a synthetic coat and the pattern - made to look 'random' - isn't - it's repeated, it's done by machine - I know you can imitate that look perfectly with the substrate being (spit) plastic.

......... I could go on but hey - not trying to swing opinion here - put me down as a snob - for now - and bash me all you like - it's all I have to say.

[Dermot]

I suspect that the closed minded attitude to plastic moulding displayed on this thread is possibly very similar to the attitude that was taken many years ago when manufacturers introduced factory finished mouldings……

The framers that only hand finished there raw moulding themselves were most likely closed minded to the new fanged factory finished moulding……..I suspect they either changed there minds or went out of business….

Oh....I never had a customer who bought a frame by weight....

[Roboframer]

Yeah - I've probably got it all arse-about-face - still ......