Point Drivers

[Roboframer]

I've only ever used two point drivers - the Fletcher Terry black gun that fires rigid points and the Fletcher Terry Green gun that fires flexible points - both manual.

In 14 years I have had two blacks and two greens - the second green went tits up on Saturday.

Now then - the first green gun I had took a regular flexipoint - so I bought the cassesse ones - the sticks were too long for the Fletcher gun - no problem, just twist off the length you need. About 2/3rds of the price of the Fletcher points. (Lion)

So - when my first gun went and I got a new one - I found that they had changed the shape of the magazine so that the gun would only accept THEIR new points (as the black gun - rigid points - always did)

BUT - I had kept the old magazine - did it fit the new gun? OH yes!

So - the green gun goes again - I took it apart - all the bits fell out all over the place - could see the problem - one broken spring, but could I be arsed to sort it and re-assemble it all? NOPE!

So I looked at the lion catalogue and lng story short - rang their technical helpline and have ordered an Olmar (Omar?) Pneumatic flexipoint gun, plus the 'T' junction for the air line, plus an adaptor, plus 10m of 6mm (4mm bore) airline, plus a coiled airline (not in the catalogue - but they do it).

So now I can do ready-made frames that the points do not fall out of after more than one removal of the backing board!!!

But then I looked further at pneumatic point drivers and Omar (Olma?) also do a RIGID one. Far more expensive than the manual Fletcher Terry of course, BUT the points for this are two thirds the price of the Fletcher Terry ones, therefore I will get my money back pretty quickly!

I doint like staples, diamond points or triangle points, and forget brads! So these two guns (black and green Fletcher Terry) have really been my only manual options and it seems that they are trying to hijack anyone buying any of their guns, including their pneumatic one - into a sort of contract that lasts the life of their guns, to buy only their points, which are the dearest out there.

So - depending on how I get on with the new pneumatic Olma{r} thingy, I may well get the rigid point version too.

What guns/points do you use and any tips on a pneumatic one?

(Lions technical helpline is really on the ball - never used it 'til today)

Oh - PS and BTW - the magazine from my very first green gun also fits my BLACK gun!!!

IOW the black gun can fire both rigid and flexi if you have a spare flexi magazine - very quick and easy to change over too - one screw!!

This is how I am coping until the new gun etc arrives.

[Merlin]

Hi John
I too, only use the Black and the Green Guns. In 8 years I have only had one broken spring on the Black gun.
To fix that I used a washer the same size as the spring and just placed it inbetween the broken parts of the spring.
It is still working fine. But yes one day that will give out, so Thank you for your tips. Look forward to hearing how you have got on

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

I've only ever used two point drivers - the Fletcher Terry black gun that fires rigid points and the Fletcher Terry Green gun that fires flexible points - both manual.

Hi Robo....

The "black' gun is called the FrameMaster and the "Green" gun is called the FlexiMaster

In 14 years I have had two blacks and two greens - the second green went tits up on Saturday.

**it happens!

...So - when my first gun went and I got a new one - I found that they had changed the shape of the magazine so that the gun would only accept THEIR new points (as the black gun - rigid points - always did)

And if you were the owner of the company making this equipment, competing against foreign competition of all sorts, you would refer to a move like that as "Bloody Brilliant".

...So - the green gun goes again - I took it apart - all the bits fell out all over the place - could see the problem - one broken spring, but could I be arsed to sort it and re-assemble it all? NOPE!

Once you know how....it's not all that difficult to reassemble a Fletcher-Terry driver. During the Spring Fair, I typically do a live demonstration to a few framers who happen to bring a defective driver into the stand, as I did this year. We'll send them to see one of our authorized stockists in the UK for the spare parts. They all carry them, including our friends at Lion. If you prefer to order parts on line....it's quite easy, by visiting this web link: FT Spare Parts.



If you have technical problems with any of the Fletcher-Terry equipment, and wish to speak with somebody, please email Roy Rowlands at ftman@hedgehog-art.co.uk for assistance.

Oh - PS and BTW - the magazine from my very first green gun also fits my BLACK gun!!! IOW the black gun can fire both rigid and flexi if you have a spare flexi magazine - very quick and easy to change over too - one screw!! This is how I am coping until the new gun etc arrives.

Dangerous move there my friend, as the magazines are interchangeable, but the drivers are of different sizes. I think you are a "jammed driver" waiting to happen. As a professional framer, I almost always use the euqipment as recommended, with authorized parts for best results.

John
Consultant to The Fletcher-Terry Co.

[markw]

I've had an Omar gun for years - it stopped working the other day - broken spring on the return valve - quick call to Lion and they sent me two new springs - guns now as good as new.

Only really painful accident I've had framing - I managed to fire a point straight into the end of my thumb - not recommended.

[Roboframer]

I've only ever used two point drivers - the Fletcher Terry black gun that fires rigid points and the Fletcher Terry Green gun that fires flexible points - both manual.

]Hi Robo....

The "black' gun is called the FrameMaster and the "Green" gun is called the FlexiMaster

Hey - had a guy work for me that called everything a 'fingy' the compressor was the yellow fingy, the underpinner the blue thingy the mount cutter the mount thingy, etc etc.

Every time he was first in the workshop and also first to pin a frame on the blue thingy, he'd press and say "Oh - duh - I forgot to turn the yellow thingy on again" Stoppped being funny after a while and he had to go!

...So - when my first gun went and I got a new one - I found that they had changed the shape of the magazine so that the gun would only accept THEIR new points (as the black gun - rigid points - always did)

And if you were the owner of the company making this equipment, competing against foreign competition of all sorts, you would refer to a move like that as "Bloody Brilliant".

Well, maybe, but it would help if the price of the points were competitive - if they were I would have bought the Fletcher Pneumatic gun, which takes both stiff and bendy fingys. Instead I looked hard at all the different flexipoints available and their prices and worked back to a gun, and for all bar the Fletcher ones, I ended up at a pneumatic gun, so, as I said, if I buy one, or even two (another for rigid points) - I'll get my money back, and much more over time in what I'm saving on points, and still have the manual as a back up.

So actually, no, I would not refer to a move like that as 'bloody brilliant', because they have, at least with me, shot themselves in the foot by limiting my choice - lost the sale of a gun I would have leapt at, (and I'd have happily paid up to twice the price of the Omer for the facility of the two-in-one) plus future sales of their points by not giving me the option, or the incentive price-wise, to choose theirs over others' They have no edge over any other comparable point and come in shorter strips that need re-loading more frequently.

Thanks for that diagram but the truth is I was just looking for an excuse to get a pneumatic one, or two - Pat is helping me a lot lately and she only has little hands - a pneumatic gun takes little strength.

I would have had that excuse if, when Fletcher T changed the flexi magazine to only take their points, I could not have adapted it to take the cassesse ones. The Olmer takes a whole stick of these and also fires the semi-rigid ones.

I guessed the driver/hammer in the black fingy would be different to the one in the green fingy, but now it's just for emergencies

I guess most framers don't want the hassle of extra air lines, adaptors, etc and opt for a manual gun, but the pneumatic ones do a better job with less effort, go longer before reloading and save money on things you use all the time, which, over the years, make a real difference. Less material cost = more profit and if a better result can be gotten as well, you can't lose.

[Roboframer]

Well, the gun and all the bits came today - can't set it up yet as I will have to reduce the pressure on ny compressor to 6 bar (90 psi??) maximum, at present it's 8 or 9, which would probably explode the gun!

I can pin a lot of mouldings at the lower pressure but it would be kicking in all the time, so the solution is an in-line pressure gauge - Lion DO sell them, they are just not in the catalogue - the helpdesk guy (Stewart - a really helpful and knowledgeable guy) says they may bring out a separate leaflet with all this gear on.

Setting up is simple, especially if your airlines are push connectors like mine. Care is needed, apparently it is illegal to have airlines on the floor -makes sense really!

Anyway, I'll wait until my next order to Lion for the in line pressure gauge, I think this will also act as a condensation trap and have a shut-off switch so that the guns can be easily swapped over, or swapped with other tools such as a flumb blaster (or trainee scarer - I know where I would stick it with some of them - they'd float out the window!!!)

If not it can almost as easily be isolated at the compressor.

I'll post photos of the airline and the connectors from compresor to gun once set up.

[kev@frames]

see that exploded diagram:
I have, in me spares drawer, three green or black guns in "kit form" in plastic bags. Probably get time to make a good point gun out of them one day

All started when we took one apart for a new spring, it exploded all over the workshop, we had no drawings or manual to put it back together so bought another. Then someone (who does not work for us any longer) got a point stuck in one, tried to "mend" it, lost half the parts (another workshop spring loaded explosion) and consigned it to the "parts drawer of despair". Number three got the body bag when a spring got too weak for ash. So I bought a pneumatic.

we still use the black guns (2 of) and green guns (2 of) in the workshop, and also the Omer pneumatic one.

The special point removal tool is also very handy!

We keep an in-line regulator (looks like a regular hose coupling) on the omer to run it at about 3 bar. We use these in line regulator couplings a lot, as the nailgun runs at max 4 bar, stapler at 2 bar, and we reduce the wind-gun town to about 2 bar. The rest of the equipment (underpinner, Wizard etc) get the full 8 bar delivery pressure from the two bambi compressors we use, and are regulated using their OEM regulators.

some day im going to plumb in a "ring main" pneumatic line with strategic plug-in couplings around the workshop.

As John (Merlin) would say, a "bubblehead" obsession with air pipes and compressors


So, do you get your compressors PAT tested and Pressure tested or shouldn't we go there!

[Roboframer]

PAT tests my compressor regularly by kicking it and listening to what note it makes - apparently F sharp is good and we are both constantly under pressure, so we're all legal!

But seriously - I have not done one thing to my compressor since I bought it, 6 years ago or more. Bar drain it daily and keep the oil level up. (It's a twin - Bambi - one side never ever needs topping up - probably because I'm looking at water in the bubble - not oil - am I asking for it?)

Who can I approach to service it?

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

...Hey - had a guy work for me that called everything a 'fingy' the compressor was the yellow fingy, the underpinner the blue thingy the mount cutter the mount thingy, etc etc.

Every time he was first in the workshop and also first to pin a frame on the blue thingy, he'd press and say "Oh - duh - I forgot to turn the yellow thingy on again" Stoppped being funny after a while and he had to go!

And yet you don't bother to embrace technical verbiage accuracy? Your point is......?

...Well, maybe, but it would help if the price of the points were competitive - blah, blah, blah.

Robo....When I vist the the UK and walk into a Sainsbury or Safeway, I still purchase Typhoo and Brookbond.......and not the generic brand of Tea. Why do you think that it's any different with framing supplies? Please, go to your kitchen and tell me honestly? -- do you have Brown Sauce on in your frig....or is it genuine HP Sauce? Did you pay a little more for it?

for that diagram but the truth is I was just looking for an excuse to get a pneumatic one, or two - Pat is helping me a lot lately and she only has little hands - a pneumatic gun takes little strength.

When, another manufacturer posts a convenient diagram on this forum to help you order spare parts.....let me know, please.

Robo....I've had dinner with you and you are a nice person, but when I view your postings here....I get the impression, that you simply like to "stir the pot!"

John

[kev@frames]

PAT tests my compressor regularly by kicking it and listening to what note it makes - apparently F sharp is good and we are both constantly under pressure, so we're all legal!

But seriously - I have not done one thing to my compressor since I bought it, 6 years ago or more. Bar drain it daily and keep the oil level up. (It's a twin - Bambi - one side never ever needs topping up - probably because I'm looking at water in the bubble - not oil - am I asking for it?)

Who can I approach to service it?

dont know about servicing for them. if they go wrong I'd guess it's more economical to replace one motor unit , or maybe even 2, than a new compressor.

we have two, and the same thing, one motor on each uses more oil than the other. It seems "they all do that, guv".

[Roboframer]

John - John, John,

I'm not going to go through all the quote rigmarole, but in answer to some points in your last post, in order ...

There was no real point in the reference to a former employee - I was just reminded of him.

Sainsburys/Safeways? Well, I use Tesco in preference to Sainsburys, they treat their staff better, but I mainly use them for sundries that everyone sells, some brand names, some 'own brands'

For our main food shopping I use a local farm shop and a supermarket called Waitrose - you'll pay more for their own brands than the big names in the major stores, and so you should, they are better and far more sensitively produced. Their employees are all partners.

Domestic shopping (for two) and business buying are two different kettles, but I'll happily pay more for a better product in either case.

I did thank you for posting that exploded diagram and I'm sure that others are/will be grateful too, whether they express that gratitude or not. But my exploded gun went straght in the bin and the only advice I sought/questions I asked were "What point drivers do you use and any advice on pneumatic drivers"

I'm constantly framing - a bit of kit that costs fifty quid to replace and has been going for 5 years (etc) goes tits up and I can't sort it quickly and easily - I'll just ditch it and order another - add a tenner for next day delivery - order a spare while I'm at it - whatever. Can't afford to fanny about with springs and screws - or the phone calls and research and TIME to order one poxy spring - just need to pick the phone up and sort it.

Fifty quid is nothing - esp over that period of time.

I read this quickly this morning before I went to work

I get the impression, that you simply like to "stir the pot!"

I'm so glad I do not have internet access down the shop. Your impression is wrong John - all I've done is explained how I arrived at a decision - impartially - and maybe offered some criticism which I hope could be constructive to anyone else wanting to go the pneumatic gun route. All that info is in the Lion catalogue - plus more I left out (and got wrong too - the Fletcher T pneumatic gun does NOT accept both flexi and rigid tabs, it's two separate guns - the wording confused me - also there ARE other rigid points that fit the FT Framemaster - but I'm not going to give details now - read the lion catalogue/speak to the tech help desk)


This dissapointed me - I would have preferred it by email or PM, but as it came in public I'll reply in the same way....

Robo....I've had dinner with you and you are a nice person, but ..............

I'm talking about equipment, expendables, comparing cost, performance and justifying requirement - that's all.

I hate it when it gets turned to flesh and blood and the type of person one might be. It's a forum thing, I know. Someone can start a topic on frame bumpers and end up being ripped apart for being an insensitive arsehole, when s/he actually is not. ..... I could go on!

Incidentally H.P. (sauce etc) a long standing British marque recently made 150 staff redundant and moved the operation to Holland for cheaper labour a 'Bloody Brilliant' move (on their part)

For that reason I will never eat another bacon butty in my life - 'cause without HP sauce they just ain't the same!!

[kev@frames]

one thing with some pneumatic drivers -eg the Omer, is that they dont all put the points in flush (paralell) with the backing board.


the disadvantage with manual (spring driven) guns is that they wear over time, and you dont really appreciate how weak they get before you realise they are becoming useless. We do use them, because they are handy, not because they are good.

I can see where Robo is coming from:

Unless you do have the time to fiddle around and mess with springs (believe it or not, many of us dont have much spare time at work) its usually easier to replace the gun than replace the springs. When you are time short and space short in a busy workplace

it often easier to throw the whole thing away (or chuck it in a drawer) and get a new one.

eg. phone call and one turns up - or tw@t around for half an hour getting in everyone's way and holding up production.

Manual point guns, as far as our shop is concerned, are throw-away hand tools. Pneumatic tools, which you invest more money in in the first place, are far more economical, reliable and trouble free.

[Roboframer]

Have to add - putting the fleximaster (green gun) magazine on the framemaster (black) gun is not a good idea.

Have not had any jamming, but it fires TWO flexitabs at a time!!!

So - now the extra bits to get the noomatic one working are kinda urgent!!!

[Martin Harrold]

Couple of points:

Air drivers - if you use one, it will generally need to have an air supply at a lower pressure than you use in your underpinner. So, you'll need to T-off the main airline and install a pressure regulator unit between there and the driver.

Also, most drivers only get damaged if and when they fall onto the floor. So, install a balancer - and we now have a cheaper one in the catalogue which has so far proved quite reliable.

Prices of F-T points - you'll find that Lion have passed on the benefit of the stronger £ against the $ by lowering the prices of some of the F-T points.

General - this Forum seems to be getting steadily more active. Well done to all those who participate and to those who just observe.

[Roboframer]

Yeah... well, when my next Lion order arrives I'm going to pour myself a nice filter coffee before I open it, and if there's no Lion Bar inside.......!!

[Not your average framer]

I see no one has mentioned the FT glazer's points. These are shorter than the normal framer's points and are cheaper, plus neater to tape over as well.

We have three FT guns, the green one (flexitabs) and two black ones. One for framer's points and one for glazer's points. They all work well, but we have switched to the Cassesse arrowhead flexitabs, which are slightly thinner and as a consequence penetrate better into ash and oak mouldings.

Also having got a drawer full of the old Columbus, Kaha, Red Devil and a Framer's Corner gun, I can say that the FT guns beat them all. The FT guns almost never jam!

However, we also are planning to switch to an Omer air powered flexitab gun sometime. A narrow gauge brad gun might be nice for fixing stacked mouldings too!

[kev@frames]

However, we also are planning to switch to an Omer air powered flexitab gun sometime. A narrow gauge brad gun might be nice for fixing stacked mouldings too!

Beauty with the omer is that same gun fires both flexi and rigid.

re brads- I picked up a nailgun in B&Q three or 4 years back, they still frequently have the same deal: Compressor and nailgun anywhere from £60 to £95.
Fires "brad" size nails, or anything up to about 45mm (maybe 40mm) great for stacking up rims together. Used to have an electric one, but that was junk in comparison.

We use it on the workshop's spare whip (wandering air line), but the bonus is you get a small, easily stored spare compressor thrown in for the price of a nailgun.

[Roboframer]

Beauty with the omer is that same gun fires both flexi and rigid.

You sure about that?

I've got the Lion catalogue in front of me and it has 4 Omer guns ...

Standard flexipoint (catalogue No 3063)
Heavy duty (4591)
Repeating (3064)
RIGID tab (4592)

However - I see there is only one spare hammer for 'most' Omer drivers.

It also says most Omer guns also fire the SEMI rigid tabs.

But anyway - you have expeience of them and if it works for you ...... which of the guns do you use for both?


Hope it's the one I bought! (standard)

[kev@frames]

the omer 53.
Yes semi rigid - pretty much as good as a rigid imho, you cant bend them too easily

[John]

Omer 53

Only occasional use though, still on the first box of bendy tabs after 3 years.