Mount Cutter Advice

Hudini · Post by **Hudini** » Fri 29 Jun, 2007 2:52 pm

Hi all, been lurking but this is my first post. Have my own new framing shop and gradually improving on my equipment and need to purchase a better mount cutter. I currently use a simple Maped system and want to buy a Keencut Ultimat Gold but cannot quite afford that leap yet. Can anyone suggest a halfway step that might let me produce good work until I can buy what I want. I have looked at lots of different makes but need the information from those who have tried.
Thanks
Stewart
Picture IT
Dunoon

Post by **John** » Fri 29 Jun, 2007 3:33 pm

Welcome to the forum Stewart. Good luck with your new venture.

Have you considered a second hand mountcutter? Perhaps your local supplier could put uou in touch with one.

Hudini · Post by **Hudini** » Fri 29 Jun, 2007 3:38 pm

Thanks for the welcome, several suppliers have advised against buying second hand but maybe thats to get the sale of new equipment. any advice would be welcome
Stewart

Not your average framer · Fri 29 Jun, 2007 7:54 pm

Most of my kit is second-hand. Just check it carefully before you buy!

Hudini · Post by **Hudini** » Mon 02 Jul, 2007 9:16 pm

frame co mount cutter
mat master system 860b
does anyone have experiance of or opinions on the above kit?

Not your average framer · Mon 02 Jul, 2007 10:55 pm

Hudini wrote:frame co mount cutter
mat master system 860b
does anyone have experiance of or opinions on the above kit?

I would suggest that you look into what you can get second hand first. Then come back and ask on the forum for opinions.

Another possibility if you've got the budget for it, is the Keencut Artist. I saw it at the NEC Spring Fair when it first came out. It's a very nice mountcutter for the money and has most of the features of the Ultimat gold too!

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 02 Jul, 2007 11:34 pm

Hudini,

If you are a professional framer, I recommend that you avoid "hobbyist" equipment. It is usually ungainly and doesn't always give a "professional" result.

The advice that others have given to investigate second hand professional equipment is very valuable advice!

It seems that you are under capitalised. This will be a problem for you, because when any new business starts off, a customer base has to be built which means that for a while there will be little or no profit to make a living from, let alone buy good equipment.

Perhaps you could consider going to a bank or financial institution with a good business plan and apply for a loan to get good basic equipment? If you are confident that your business will succeed, then you will succeed and a financial institution should give you very strong consideration.

markw · Post by **markw** » Tue 03 Jul, 2007 7:26 am

Wise words from Osgood. You cant offer a proper framing service unless you have the right kit - and the necessary knowledge.

If you have to ask about machinery recommendations on this forum I assume that you really haven't a clue about what your doing. You will read it on this forum time after time - don't experiment on customers work - get some training.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Tue 03 Jul, 2007 9:04 am

Hudini wrote:frame co mount cutter
mat master system 860b
does anyone have experiance of or opinions on the above kit?

I have one of those. I bought it when I first started as it seemed a cheaper alternative to a Keencut. After about 9 months I got frustrated with it and went out and bought an Ultimat Gold.

I still have the FrameCo and I do use it occasionaly for multiple openings but the Ultimat is so much better.

It's much faster and easier to use. I won't say it's more accurate as it's possible to be perfectly accurate with a FrameCo cutter (or any hand cutter) but it's a lot easier to cut accurately using an Ultimat.

One disadvantage of the Ultimat is that it does take up more bench space and it's to big and heavy to keep moving. However, since it's in use almost all of the time that's no problem -- I just needed to rearrange things slightly.

A used Ultimat is likely to be a good buy. Most framers take care of machines like that and there's not a lot to go wrong that can't be replaced. My experience of the people at Ultimat is that they're very helpful and provide good support.

Not your average framer · Tue 03 Jul, 2007 7:45 pm

All keencut mountcutters are worth looking at if second hand. As far as I know all the plastic bearings are available as replacements and there is very little else to wear out.

I have an Keencut Ultimat at work and a Keencut Dart at home, plus a C&H 4060A also at home. All were bought secondhand and work perfectly.

To give an idea what sort of value you get with second hand mountcutters, the Ultimat cost me £400, the Dart cost me £100 and the C&H cost me £150.

You can't go wrong with good second hand gear. If you ever want to upgrade you sell the one you've finished with on eBay and get your money back.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Tue 03 Jul, 2007 8:03 pm

One disadvantage of the Ultimat is that it does take up more bench space and it's to big and heavy to keep moving. However, since it's in use almost all of the time that's no problem -- I just needed to rearrange things slightly.

Mike,
Many years ago when I had a C&H matcutter, only for about a year, I mounted the matcutter almost vertical against a wall with an mdf panel alongside to support the mats. It was used in this attitude all the time and only took up a space about 5 feet long and about 12" - 15" out from the wall.

I suspect that most brands of that style of matcutter should be able to be set up that way to take up much less space in your workshop.

Not your average framer · Tue 03 Jul, 2007 8:22 pm

osgood wrote: Mike,
Many years ago when I had a C&H matcutter, only for about a year, I mounted the matcutter almost vertical against a wall with an mdf panel alongside to support the mats. It was used in this attitude all the time and only took up a space about 5 feet long and about 12" - 15" out from the wall.

I suspect that most brands of that style of matcutter should be able to be set up that way to take up much less space in your workshop.

Keencut's original Ultimat literature says that they make a wall mounting bracket for the Ultimat. One assumes they probably can still supply it.

I used to do the same with an old Rotatrim I uesd to cut mountboard to size, before I got the Keencut System 4000 (again second hand!)

Not your average framer · Tue 03 Jul, 2007 8:47 pm

Hi Hudini,

Another thought to bear in mind is the disadvantage of buying a mountcutter which can only be used with blades supplied by the manufacturer of the mountcutter. In these situations the blades always cost more than the usual blades which fit most other mountcutters.

The other aspect of this, is that most framers have been able to experiment with different makes, thickesses and designs of blade, to get the result they want. Unfortunately, you can't do this if the mountcutter won't accept a range of different blades.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Wed 04 Jul, 2007 10:18 am

osgood wrote:I mounted the matcutter almost vertical against a wall with an mdf panel alongside to support the mats.

Unfortunately wall space is at an even greater premium in my workshop.

I'm thinking of buying a shed to house the router and table saw (which I don't use because of the dust) and then I'll have access to the end wall of the workshop. So do I use that to display corner samples or finished frames, or do I try to put the mountcutter on it? Decisions, decisions...

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Wed 04 Jul, 2007 8:37 pm

WelshFramer wrote:So do I use that to display corner samples or finished frames, or do I try to put the mountcutter on it? Decisions, decisions...

You don't need to use walls for your corner samples. I have a couple of stands that could be anywhere in the room, that hold many corners. If you were to look straight down on top, four panels of mdf covered in frontrunner are joined to form a cross and those panels are six feet tall. The panels are mounted on a bearing that allows them to rotate. The eight sides will hold about 400-500 corners.

That leaves your wall space for other uses.

birdman · Post by **birdman** » Wed 04 Jul, 2007 8:48 pm

Good idea Ormond but now where can I find some more floor space? Perhaps if I hang the Morso on the wall and put the customers on the bench? Well maybe not.

Some of us don't have room in our broom cupboards and my workshop is in the corner of the broom cupboard ....

The other option is to hang hinged sheets to the wall and you could have corners/chevrons or even pictures attached to them.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Wed 04 Jul, 2007 8:53 pm

birdman wrote:Good idea Ormond but now where can I find some more floor space?

Some of you guys seem to have a real space problem. Is this an endemeic problem up there? Are you guys trying to run a business in a dunny?

There is a solution.......move to premises that are big enough to run a framing business!

birdman · Post by **birdman** » Wed 04 Jul, 2007 8:54 pm

Ormond,

I'm hoping to grow big enough to move to a dunny!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 04 Jul, 2007 9:03 pm

osgood wrote: There is a solution.......move to premises that are big enough to run a framing business!

Easy for you to say Ormond - how about 'Move to a country where the average premises are bigger because the country they fit in is HUUUUGE')

Your average house is larger etc etc.

What really P***** me off though is these countries that WE found - or took - or stole - or - whatever have better standards of everything - even framing, which we probably invented too - why couldn't it be written in the original deals, that any Brit could just pack up and go and live in one of these places anytime.

Last one out turn the lights off!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 04 Jul, 2007 9:04 pm

birdman wrote:Ormond,

I'm hoping to grow big enough to move to a dunny!

We were evicted from our Dunny ...

We used to live in a paper bag in a corridor.........