Advice on buying glass

Twin Peaks · Post by **Twin Peaks** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 2:18 pm

I have just started a picture framing business and was wondering what people advise about buying glass. I have been to two local suppliers and bought 3 foot by 2 foot (because that seems best for general use) 2mm and their prices vary quite alot. Anyone with any advice?

Post by **prospero** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 2:44 pm

I think you will find that you waste a lot with 3x2 sheets, most framers tend to use 4X3. Any bigger than that and you need a huge workshop and arms like a gibbon. The price of glass always has fluctuated a lot.

Post by **John** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 2:52 pm

Hi TP,

If you do a search on the forum for 'glass' you will find additional useful information.

Bill Henry · Post by **Bill Henry** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 4:20 pm

Perhaps someone here can clarify my ignorance.

After following a few threads concerning glass, I have the impression that most of you guys in the U. K. purchase glazing materials in the “larger” sizes (> or ~ 36” x 48”, or whatever the metric equivalent is), then cut down to whatever smaller sizes that are needed for your custom framing.

Are other sizes unavailable or is it that you just find it more convenient or economical to buy glass that way? Obviously, cutting a 16” x 20” from a 36” x 48” sheet will leave you with a good chunk of “scrap” which, in most instances, can be reused.

Generally, most glass using in picture framing in North America is sold by weight in 50 pound boxes, and, as a consequence, each case regardless of size costs approximately the same per square inch. Just for discussion, most varieties of glass (clear, non-glare, UV, Museum, etc.) are available in 8 x 10, 11 x 14, 12 x 16, 14 x 18, 16 x 20, 20 x 24, 24 x 30, 26 x 36, 32 x 40, 36 x 48, 40 x 60 sizes.

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 6:01 pm

Bill

The supply chain is not in place in these parts to buy glass the way you can in the US...........when I had my glass supply business I used to supply a few sizes other than 3’ x 4’ but very few framers were interested and I could not convince them of the benfits of having a wide selection of sized ready to use........

Jerry (Jerome) Feig did bring me to one of the glass supply houses for picture framers in Detroit back a few years ago and I was very impressed in the operation.

There is one or two suppliers in the UK who will supply glass in various cut sizes in the UK but they will only supply bulk in two ton boxes (pallets)

One other thing I have to say I’m very impressed in how you are engaging on this forum and how you are trying to understand the differences in the business on the two sides of the pond..........thank you for your participation

Best regards

Dermot

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 7:08 pm

Hi Dermot

Well said w.r.t Bill engaging in this site. A few others have verbally remarked about framers across the pond joining us in discussion.

Bill if you have a look at a map of the UK. We are way down in the South West. (the bit that looks like the big toe !!!) Somewhat rural and as most of the big ?? manufacturers/distributors are 'up North' they are very reluctant to travel this far.

We can only get 2mm glass in 4' x 3' sheets and my minimum is 20 sheets at a time, which is not a bad thing as being rural the properties are not particularly large in the storage/work areas.

However our deliveries are weekly, so it is just a matter of thinking/working ahead. Price per sheet at that size is £2.83 which includes VAT. If I am caught short and have to go to the local glass company then the price per sheet goes up to £3.58 per sheet.

realhotglass · Post by **realhotglass** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:36 pm

Bill et al,

For your info, framers in Australia generally buy their glass the same as the UK, in larger sheets.
Buying the largest size sheets they can handle / cut safely, and store, reduces waste overall (more useful offcut sizes).

The only places here that would optimise for mass produced sizes are the large shopping centre outlets, where their framing is done at a central factory.
They would get thousands of their standard sizes CNC or from China direct.

Without a lot of in depth thinking (it's early !), I would have considered stocking so many sizes would be a lot of inventory to hold / monitor, and if you only chose to overcome that by holding say every second size, you could end up with a fair amount of waste when cutting to final size.

Do you hold all those sizes in plain, NR, UV clear, Museum etc ?
If so, that's a heck of a lot of boxes !! : )
If selecting certain sizes, you'd be better (I expect) to hold less sizes in plain, and all of the UV sizes, for example, to reduce waste of the more expensive product.

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:37 pm

I suppose the question ought to be how big a sheet can you cut - if you have a wall mounted cutter that will accommodate large sheets - buy large sheets. If you cut on a bench and can only manage quarter sheets - then thats the size for you untill you get a wall mounted glass cutter.

Personally I hate handling really big sheets of glass - made the mistake many years ago of trying to cut one to size by laying it on the floor - I suppose I was lucky it didn't break as i lay it flat - it certainly exploded when i tried to pick it up - valuable lesson learnt - dont mess with big sheets of 2mm - it bites.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 21 Jul, 2007 11:50 pm

markw wrote:... untill you get a wall mounted glass cutter.

If your budget allows it, my recommendation is to go for one of the above from day one. For the amount of time my Excalibur saves me, I think it's worth its weight in gold.

And Mark ain't lying about the glass!

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Sun 22 Jul, 2007 7:26 am

Mark's cutting glass on the floor reminds me of artist Ralph Griffin (Griff) who used to live in Polperro with his wife Margaret. He had a little gallery in Landividdy Lane where he cut glass on the floor with a huge amount of waste. You just can't cut glass on carpeted flagstones.

Along with many of the fishermen they were both well known characters in the village. Griff would sit on his artists' stool at the end of the quay sketching and painting for the many who would gather round. Sure fire way to sell work.

Sadly, like so many places, they are not there any more and the whole profile of the village has changed with the influx of grockles who have bought most of the property.

Post by **prospero** » Sun 22 Jul, 2007 1:52 pm

That brings back not-so-fond memories of the first load of of glass I had delivered. I got 6 6x4 sheets from a local glass company and decided to cut them in half to store them. The only place I could lay them flat was the kitchen floor. I did the first one OK. The other five ended up in a variety of triangular shaped broken pieces.

I learned two things from this:

Floors are not as flat as they look.

Don't buy cheap glasscutters.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sun 22 Jul, 2007 2:59 pm

foxyframer wrote:Sadly, like so many places .....the whole profile of the village has changed with the influx of grockles who have bought most of the property.

Same was happening in Wiltshire with commuters.

On the subject of waste glass, Twin Peaks, it's a good idea to find a recycling service sooner rather than later.

Bill Henry · Post by **Bill Henry** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 5:43 pm

Merlin Framers wrote:We can only get 2mm glass in 4' x 3' sheets and my minimum is 20 sheets at a time, which is not a bad thing as being rural the properties are not particularly large in the storage/work areas.

However our deliveries are weekly, so it is just a matter of thinking/working ahead. Price per sheet at that size is £2.83 which includes VAT. If I am caught short and have to go to the local glass company then the price per sheet goes up to £3.58 per sheet.

It appears that your purchasing power through your distributor is better than mine going through my framing supply distributor. For a box of clear light glass, 36” x 48” (4 sheets/ box), I am paying ~ £4.50/ sheet (if I have the two $ to one £ conversion correct). I could probably do better if I dealt directly through a wholesale glass distributor, but most of them in my area, like in your situation, have a minimum order and a minimum size.

However, most of our framing distributors carry nearly the full range of framing supplies e.g. moulding, mat board, backing materials, as well as glass. My primary distributor is located approximately 80 miles from our shop, but has free weekly deliveries (as long as one has a £50 minimum order). Although I am paying a premium it, I do it willingly for the convenience of having the glass washed, paper interleaved, and boxed. If you think about it, glass is one of the least expensive commodities that we use. For the most part, regardless of size, we are paying only 1/2 ¢ / square inch of the stuff.

realhotglass wrote:Bill et al,
Do you hold all those sizes in plain, NR, UV clear, Museum etc ?
If so, that's a heck of a lot of boxes !! : )
If selecting certain sizes, you'd be better (I expect) to hold less sizes in plain, and all of the UV sizes, for example, to reduce waste of the more expensive product.

No, we do not carrry all those sizes in all the varieties of glass. We have a modest sized shop and storage space is dear. However, (as much as I am lothe to admit), the majority of glass we sell is “standard, clear, light”. Because of that we do stock full boxes of 11 x 14, 12 x 16, 14 x 18, 16 x 20, 20 x 24, 24 x 30, 26 x 36, 32 x 40, 36 x 48 in the clear variety.

For the “premium varieties (e.g. UV, reflection control, Museum, etc.), we only stock boxes of glass in 12 x 16, 16 x 20, 20 x 24, 24 x 30, 32 x 40, and 36 x 48 sizes.

realhotglass wrote:
Buying the largest size sheets they can handle / cut safely, and store, reduces waste overall (more useful offcut sizes)..

Our reasoning has taken us in a different direction. Using the “clear light” glass as an example, since we are paying only $0.005 square inch and our shop fee is $1.20 a minute, we believe that it is more economical, in most instances, to discard scrap than it is to handle a large sheet of leftover, return it to the box, reseal it, and return the box to its proper storage area.

Especially with the fragile surfaces of UV, AR, and Museum, we find that excessive (and to our mind) unnecessary handling increases the risk of damaging it to the point of rendering large leftovers unusable.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 6:30 pm

Moglet wrote:If your budget allows it, my recommendation is to go for one of the above from day one. For the amount of time my Excalibur saves me, I think it's worth its weight in gold.

I've been looking at the larger Excalibur, until I realised that I'd have to cut a hole in the ceiling to fit it in........

The smaller one only just fits. How good are they at glass cutting? Is it easier & safer than a hand scorer?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 6:38 pm

Much - also it cuts everything that fits inside the frame on the same stops, so, better and quicker, probably safer too - definitely safer for cutting board.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 7:24 pm

I've got the Excalibur 5000. Cuts glass like a dream: I get a clean break about 99% of the time. If I wear a good thick pair of riggers gloves (backwards!

), I can snap off excess down to about 10mm. I've found that it reduces chipping if I use my knee to support larger sheets of glass as I guide them down onto into the horizontal arm.

As Robo says, you can cut all sheet materials on the same stops. I normally feed materials from the right-hand side, and I bought a second stop for the right-hand arm from Keencut (costs peanuts) so that I can set length and width for a job simultaneously (provided difference between two dimensions is greater than about 40mm). I sometimes find using a two-stop method handy for trimming glass offcuts to size where there is little excess to trim (eg cut narrower dimension first for mountboard & backboard, cut wider first for glass) as it minimises the length of the narrow bit of glass that needs to be snapped off (if you get my drift) and consequently reduces the possibility of a non-clean break. Using the two stops is also very handy if you need to cut another piece of mountboard mid-job.......

It cuts foamcore up to 10mm perfectly, too.

Word of warning viz-a-viz safety: especially when cutting medium-sized sheets of glass (where the sheet protrudes past the backplane of the cutter) take great care with your eyes when bending down to swing the stop back into place after positioning the glass on the arm. Much as I hate 'em, it's worth wearing safety specs.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 7:42 pm

Do you snap on the cutter, or remove to a bench first?

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 7:46 pm

On the cutter, with the clamp still in place.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 7:52 pm

Sounds good enough to me! It'll save 2 square yards where a glass cutting table was going to be placed.

The 5000 now has a wider backboard, BTW (according to the Lion catalogue) - but safety specs are a must anyway with glass. I've been thinking of a trip to brum to have a demo of that and some underpinners....

PS When I said larger and smaller, I meant the 5000 in both cases - it comes in two sizes.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Tue 24 Jul, 2007 8:01 pm

IMO, it'll pay for itself in no time. I was taught all the manual methods when I did my training, but Mike also showed me the Excalibur while I was there. After comparing the time taken between manual and sheet cutter, I didn't have a decision to make.

BTW, for any newbie framers setting up a workshop for the first time, the Fletcher LiteGrip is a great piece of kit for glass cleaning!

It's available from Lion.

Edited to add:

Be very interested in how you get on with your underpinner evaluation, Steve.