I've looked under the Christmas tree and non of the prezzies look large enough to contain a CMC so it looks as if I'm going to have buy my own.
I know there's been plenty of threads about CMCs but, as it's Christmas, I thought I'd start another one.
It seems as if there are three makes to choose from: Wizard, Gunnar and Valiana. Are there any others I should be considering.
Generally I'll be producing a fairly small volume of window mounts so I'm clearly after a low-end machine. Many of the window mounts will be one-off and I won't always want to use a full sheet of board -- is that an issue?
Anyway, I'll be browsing the CMCs at the Spring Fair and probably contacting some of the manufacturers beforehand. What I really need is a list of questions to ask. What's important in choosing a CMC and what questions will I need to ask to unearth the differences?
No CMC for Christmas
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All sellers are required to have a forum profile that identifies them clearly. (Such as - name, surname, location, business name et cetera)
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WelshFramer
- Posts: 996
- Joined: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 10:03 am
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Organisation: Neuadd Bwll Framing
- Interests: Does running a framing business leave any time for interests?
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Contact:
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Spit
- Posts: 1102
- Joined: Fri 17 Mar, 2006 8:54 pm
- Location: Glandwr
- Organisation: Framing Mad
- Interests: Framing, watercolours & CCFC
- Location: Pembrokeshire
- Contact:
With one offs I cut to glass size on the board cutter then let the gunnar cut the opening - it's the simplest & least wasteful way. There's no problem in doing that, and it doesn't take long.
If you're going to be producing 100's or 1000's (like your recent request) then you would be better having one that can cut both bevels and 90 degree cuts (Gunnar 601, for example) as people who buy batches for sale just as wrapped mounted work tend to prefer a flat outer edge to a bevel.
If you do the occasional large works that need jumbo boards, then you would be better off getting one capable of cutting such boards - dragging out the old manual cutter for these jobs will be a pain.
Of the makes you mention, any of them would be a good buy - all have their plusses and minuses but I think overall there isn't one that stands out way above the others. One thing to look for is after sale charges (support, maintenance) - these can vary. Best thing is to take a good number of same size mounts along to the fair so you can have your own everyday boards cut and see how they compare.
If you're going to be producing 100's or 1000's (like your recent request) then you would be better having one that can cut both bevels and 90 degree cuts (Gunnar 601, for example) as people who buy batches for sale just as wrapped mounted work tend to prefer a flat outer edge to a bevel.
If you do the occasional large works that need jumbo boards, then you would be better off getting one capable of cutting such boards - dragging out the old manual cutter for these jobs will be a pain.
Of the makes you mention, any of them would be a good buy - all have their plusses and minuses but I think overall there isn't one that stands out way above the others. One thing to look for is after sale charges (support, maintenance) - these can vary. Best thing is to take a good number of same size mounts along to the fair so you can have your own everyday boards cut and see how they compare.
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Merlin
- Posts: 1538
- Joined: Thu 05 Jun, 2003 5:50 pm
- Location: Cornwall
- Organisation: Merlin Mounts
- Interests: Aviation
When I was looking around for a CMC, some 3 years ago; I spent a long time pestering the reps at the trade shows and talking to CMC owners.
Nearly all told me to make a rough template up and present it at a trade show and get the people to design it and cut it live - whilst I watched them. That way you could get a decent 'feel' for the software and the machinery in use.
The following is the template - as suggested. The colours have been enhanced so as to show the layers properly. It is based on a 16" x 12" triple mount (ATG'd together - so that it could not be cut separately).
It incorporates inside and outside 90 degree corners.
A V-groove.
An oval with a V-groove plus a PLT image in the centre.
A Circle - the smallest of which is 3/4 inch.
N.B.
Inspect the Ovals and the Circles after the cut to make sure that the blade tracking for 'start of cut' and 'end of cut' are smooth and that there are no 'steps'.
Inspect the V-groove to make sure it is a clean cut and that there are no 'feathers' in the bottom of the V.
Admittedley these are demonstration machines and get manhandled around the country. However they should still be 'calibrated' to give clean cuts.
Hope this helps.
Nearly all told me to make a rough template up and present it at a trade show and get the people to design it and cut it live - whilst I watched them. That way you could get a decent 'feel' for the software and the machinery in use.
The following is the template - as suggested. The colours have been enhanced so as to show the layers properly. It is based on a 16" x 12" triple mount (ATG'd together - so that it could not be cut separately).
It incorporates inside and outside 90 degree corners.
A V-groove.
An oval with a V-groove plus a PLT image in the centre.
A Circle - the smallest of which is 3/4 inch.
N.B.
Inspect the Ovals and the Circles after the cut to make sure that the blade tracking for 'start of cut' and 'end of cut' are smooth and that there are no 'steps'.
Inspect the V-groove to make sure it is a clean cut and that there are no 'feathers' in the bottom of the V.
Admittedley these are demonstration machines and get manhandled around the country. However they should still be 'calibrated' to give clean cuts.
Hope this helps.
John GCF
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markw
Sorry to hear Santa couldnt fit your CMC onto his sleigh. I dont think ive talked to anyone with a CMC who didnt think his particular machine was the mutts nutts.. I can tell you that my machine has transformed the way I work - best investment Ive made in since I started framing - les materials wasted - and certainly less time wasted. Dont tell my wife, but its the most productive worker in the business.
Had a chap in before Christmas - complicated mount for a recording studio - designed and cut in minutes - customer comes back for more of the same - call up the file - cut several more identical mounts. Lots of multiple apertures - all multi layered - no sweat.
I would be looking at the ability for new machines to tie in with the front of shop design and pricing software - wizard have stolen a march on this but the others are catching up. I am looking at the
A small investment to give you a big advantage.
Had a chap in before Christmas - complicated mount for a recording studio - designed and cut in minutes - customer comes back for more of the same - call up the file - cut several more identical mounts. Lots of multiple apertures - all multi layered - no sweat.
I would be looking at the ability for new machines to tie in with the front of shop design and pricing software - wizard have stolen a march on this but the others are catching up. I am looking at the
A small investment to give you a big advantage.
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markw
Sorry to hear Santa couldnt fit your CMC onto his sleigh. I dont think ive talked to anyone with a CMC who didnt think his particular machine was the mutts nutts.. I can tell you that my machine has transformed the way I work - best investment Ive made in since I started framing - less materials wasted - and certainly less time wasted. Dont tell my wife, but its the most productive worker in the business.
Had a chap in before Christmas - complicated mount for a recording studio - designed and cut in minutes - customer comes back for more of the same - call up the file - cut several more identical mounts. Lots of multiple apertures - all multi layered - no sweat.
I would be looking at the ability for new machines to tie in with the front of shop design and pricing software - wizard have stolen a march on this but the others are catching up. I am looking at the time when nothing is measured - every thing calibrated to the image from a overhead camera - chop frames ordered - file sent to the CMC - time left for the framer to do the creative complicated bits.
A small investment to give you a big advantage.
Had a chap in before Christmas - complicated mount for a recording studio - designed and cut in minutes - customer comes back for more of the same - call up the file - cut several more identical mounts. Lots of multiple apertures - all multi layered - no sweat.
I would be looking at the ability for new machines to tie in with the front of shop design and pricing software - wizard have stolen a march on this but the others are catching up. I am looking at the time when nothing is measured - every thing calibrated to the image from a overhead camera - chop frames ordered - file sent to the CMC - time left for the framer to do the creative complicated bits.
A small investment to give you a big advantage.
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Jared Davis CPF, GCF
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Tue 11 Dec, 2007 8:45 pm
- Location: Brisbane, Australia
- Organisation: Www.jareddavis.com.au
- Interests: CMC's, Running
- Location: Brisbane, Australia
- Contact:
Hello Mike,
Sorry to hear that Santa didn't bring you your CMC for Christmas!
Most CMC's are designed for small "custom framers", thus being able to utilise smaller sized off-cuts, rather than full sheets, is essential.
John has offered some great advice there about getting cut samples. As he suggests, be prepared to request and inspect cut samples and then compare the quality.
Regardless of the brand of CMC you choose, ANY CMC will make a huge difference to your business. However, not all CMC's are created equal.
When it comes to comparing quality, keep in mind that pretty much all machines will cut at least "acceptably" on "day one" out of the box. It's not until you get to day "10,001" that you realise the truth in this statement.
To help framers like yourself, I have actually written a 17 page booklet on "How to buy a CMC" which I put together by talking to many framers around Australia who purchased CMC's over recent years, and it offers genuine, unbiased advice for researching your choice of CMC's.
If you shoot me an e-mail, I can e-mail it back to you as a PDF?
jared@megawood.com.au
Being a Gunnar CMC technician in Australia for over 10 years, I am aware of some of the popular sales "tricks" employed at tradeshows so here are some thoughts for you to keep in mind before you go to Spring Fair -
- Oval v-grooves are a great test of accuracy to cut on any CMC. A double mounted love heart is a good one to compare as well.
- Make sure that the sample mats are cut on a realistic "full sized" CMC, not a "16" x 20" miniature version of the real thing - a "miniature" CMC has less mechanical play in the carriageway, etc and offers better the accuracy, but it not a true, realistic demo.
- Don't believe everything you see in just the software alone - request to see examples cut as well. Keep in mind the software you see now will likely be different (and better) in 5 years time (due to free upgrades), but your machine won't change at all... so for a long term decision, it is smart to place emphasis on the mechanical performance and quality, as any inferiorities in this stuff can't be fixed and just "upgraded for free".
- If there is something you intend using on a CMC, like embossing / debossing, cutting ovals, cutting v-grooves, cutting eight ply, then make sure you SEE all of these things cut first before you decide. What you see (on the screen) is not always what you get!
- See what's involved in changing a blade (or blade head).
- The good old "we can cut pre-glued double mats in one process" demo. For the ignorant, this is an impressive demo, and keep in mind more than one brand of CMC is capable of this.... but it is also deceptive, as it requires the operator to know exactly where to put the ATG tape before cutting the top mat opening? This is fine if you are using pre-sized mats with a pre-configured file, and you don't care how close you get the ATG tape to the opening... but in the real world, no one uses this technique, even if their machine offers this feature.
At the end of the day- it's all about "keeping it real"...
All the best for 2008
Jared
Sorry to hear that Santa didn't bring you your CMC for Christmas!
Most CMC's are designed for small "custom framers", thus being able to utilise smaller sized off-cuts, rather than full sheets, is essential.
John has offered some great advice there about getting cut samples. As he suggests, be prepared to request and inspect cut samples and then compare the quality.
Regardless of the brand of CMC you choose, ANY CMC will make a huge difference to your business. However, not all CMC's are created equal.
When it comes to comparing quality, keep in mind that pretty much all machines will cut at least "acceptably" on "day one" out of the box. It's not until you get to day "10,001" that you realise the truth in this statement.
To help framers like yourself, I have actually written a 17 page booklet on "How to buy a CMC" which I put together by talking to many framers around Australia who purchased CMC's over recent years, and it offers genuine, unbiased advice for researching your choice of CMC's.
If you shoot me an e-mail, I can e-mail it back to you as a PDF?
jared@megawood.com.au
Being a Gunnar CMC technician in Australia for over 10 years, I am aware of some of the popular sales "tricks" employed at tradeshows so here are some thoughts for you to keep in mind before you go to Spring Fair -
- Oval v-grooves are a great test of accuracy to cut on any CMC. A double mounted love heart is a good one to compare as well.
- Make sure that the sample mats are cut on a realistic "full sized" CMC, not a "16" x 20" miniature version of the real thing - a "miniature" CMC has less mechanical play in the carriageway, etc and offers better the accuracy, but it not a true, realistic demo.
- Don't believe everything you see in just the software alone - request to see examples cut as well. Keep in mind the software you see now will likely be different (and better) in 5 years time (due to free upgrades), but your machine won't change at all... so for a long term decision, it is smart to place emphasis on the mechanical performance and quality, as any inferiorities in this stuff can't be fixed and just "upgraded for free".
- If there is something you intend using on a CMC, like embossing / debossing, cutting ovals, cutting v-grooves, cutting eight ply, then make sure you SEE all of these things cut first before you decide. What you see (on the screen) is not always what you get!
- See what's involved in changing a blade (or blade head).
- The good old "we can cut pre-glued double mats in one process" demo. For the ignorant, this is an impressive demo, and keep in mind more than one brand of CMC is capable of this.... but it is also deceptive, as it requires the operator to know exactly where to put the ATG tape before cutting the top mat opening? This is fine if you are using pre-sized mats with a pre-configured file, and you don't care how close you get the ATG tape to the opening... but in the real world, no one uses this technique, even if their machine offers this feature.
At the end of the day- it's all about "keeping it real"...
All the best for 2008
Jared
Hi Mike,
I guess the biggest question you should ask yourself is, what do I want from the machine?
Do you want to spend big money for one that cuts 45 degrees for the bevel and also has a second head for the 90 degree edges.
Do you heed a debossing head (interchangeable or not)
Do you want to cut all the layers at the same time. Unless you use an already cut sheet as a template you will be assembling the layers by eye afterwards anyway.
Is speed important.
Do you really want to cut Jumbo boards.
How firmly are the sheets (and subsequent layers) held down during cutting.
How accurate are the cuts (get one cut outside and measure the result).
How will you create custom shapes, can you use corel draw or would you rather trace around a jpeg using the mouse.
What do I want to cut. We all love the fancy cuts and v grooves, but if your bread and butter work is 8x10 apertures then see if the machine handles this job efficiently.
How small are the minimum cut sizes for custom shapes and letters.
How much are the blades and can they be changed easily.
How much space do I have, wall mounting, flat and angled beds are all options to consider.
What is the maximum board thickness the machine can handle.
What is the customer support like - who can I phone when I need help.
Can the machine be serviced and repaired easily. Who sets it up.
Can I use the software as a novice. Ask about upgrades and installation.
How easily can I create multiple cuts and how do I optimise sheet usage.
What training do they offer.
Payment terms, credit, lease etc.
What is the opportunity cost of owning the machine, could I get by outsourcing the work rather that invest £7-£10,000 on a CMC.
Do I get the compressor, computer, CMC and blades as a package, do I need all of these, can I simply add the CMC to my existing set-up.
When you have done all that, then see what the machine does. I would personally recommend going the the suppliers location and getting them to put it through it's paces. Trade shows are busy environments and they do not always allow the company reps to show you everything you want to see. I often arrive during a tea break and the stand is littered with people, none of whom can work the CMC!
As has been said before, everyone loves their own brand and bought it as it suited themselves. Wizards are easy to use, have excellent support and features, but lack the little extras that other brands offer. Gunnar make sturdy, fast and reliable machines and have a bewildering array of possible uses from mountcutting to cardboard box manufacture, all you need is money. Valiani make CMC's that do everything in theory but can be finicky and are based in Italy.
I do not want to proffer any bias in favour of a particular brand. I bought mine because it suited me. You must do the same. Use the spring fair as a window shopping event and then try them all at your leisure. Give each manufacturer examples of the work you do regularly and get them to match it. Time, evaluate and cogitate on the results, then hand over the cash. Remember the old adage , buy in haste, repent at leisure.
I guess the biggest question you should ask yourself is, what do I want from the machine?
Do you want to spend big money for one that cuts 45 degrees for the bevel and also has a second head for the 90 degree edges.
Do you heed a debossing head (interchangeable or not)
Do you want to cut all the layers at the same time. Unless you use an already cut sheet as a template you will be assembling the layers by eye afterwards anyway.
Is speed important.
Do you really want to cut Jumbo boards.
How firmly are the sheets (and subsequent layers) held down during cutting.
How accurate are the cuts (get one cut outside and measure the result).
How will you create custom shapes, can you use corel draw or would you rather trace around a jpeg using the mouse.
What do I want to cut. We all love the fancy cuts and v grooves, but if your bread and butter work is 8x10 apertures then see if the machine handles this job efficiently.
How small are the minimum cut sizes for custom shapes and letters.
How much are the blades and can they be changed easily.
How much space do I have, wall mounting, flat and angled beds are all options to consider.
What is the maximum board thickness the machine can handle.
What is the customer support like - who can I phone when I need help.
Can the machine be serviced and repaired easily. Who sets it up.
Can I use the software as a novice. Ask about upgrades and installation.
How easily can I create multiple cuts and how do I optimise sheet usage.
What training do they offer.
Payment terms, credit, lease etc.
What is the opportunity cost of owning the machine, could I get by outsourcing the work rather that invest £7-£10,000 on a CMC.
Do I get the compressor, computer, CMC and blades as a package, do I need all of these, can I simply add the CMC to my existing set-up.
When you have done all that, then see what the machine does. I would personally recommend going the the suppliers location and getting them to put it through it's paces. Trade shows are busy environments and they do not always allow the company reps to show you everything you want to see. I often arrive during a tea break and the stand is littered with people, none of whom can work the CMC!
As has been said before, everyone loves their own brand and bought it as it suited themselves. Wizards are easy to use, have excellent support and features, but lack the little extras that other brands offer. Gunnar make sturdy, fast and reliable machines and have a bewildering array of possible uses from mountcutting to cardboard box manufacture, all you need is money. Valiani make CMC's that do everything in theory but can be finicky and are based in Italy.
I do not want to proffer any bias in favour of a particular brand. I bought mine because it suited me. You must do the same. Use the spring fair as a window shopping event and then try them all at your leisure. Give each manufacturer examples of the work you do regularly and get them to match it. Time, evaluate and cogitate on the results, then hand over the cash. Remember the old adage , buy in haste, repent at leisure.
Giclee is just a term for a little squirt making lots of money
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
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kev@frames
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 12:06 am
- Location: Penzance Cornwall UK
- Organisation: Moonshine Framing Penzance
- Interests: 4 or 5 ...
- Location: West Cornwall, UK
- Contact:
and dont forget to weigh up the economics and flexibility of a rental deal .... if you buy up front, you are fairly committed to keeping that machine for probably several years like the rest of your workshop kit, if you rent a lemon, you can change makes at the end of the rental period.
I have a Wizard. if I were to start all over again in all honesty I would probably have a wizard again. however viliani and trucut would be strong contenders.
at the end of the day 99 percent of your work will be plain old square mounts with square apertures, because 99 percent of the pictures you frame will be square. It doesn't change (much) just because you have a CMC. the bells whistles and fonts are great for bragging rights, but with the benefit of hindsight I'd always be more interested in whether it cut an accurate rectangle, was easy to calibrate and maintain, and was reliable.
best thing you could ever do is speak with other owners re their particular machine, and wheedle out of them what they DONT like about it.
so what DONT I like about my wizard?
a) its bloody huge!
b) i cant toggle between imperial and metric on the fly (now come on WizSteve, there has been a software request on this for almost a year now....)
c)its not the fastest on the market by a long way.
d) it will randomly blow out the pneumatic clamps - easy to replace and cheap, but a PITA if you dont keep a spare or two in hand.
what I DO like about my wizard
a) its bloody huge!
b)its reliable as a morso and built like a tank.
c) it will relentlessly cut mounts 24/7 without needing calibration for months at a time sometimes.
d) the software is great (apart from b) in the above section)
e) support and service from framers corner is second to none, blades and spares are never a problem, and Sam knows every nut, bolt, part and screw on the machine inside out.
I have a Wizard. if I were to start all over again in all honesty I would probably have a wizard again. however viliani and trucut would be strong contenders.
at the end of the day 99 percent of your work will be plain old square mounts with square apertures, because 99 percent of the pictures you frame will be square. It doesn't change (much) just because you have a CMC. the bells whistles and fonts are great for bragging rights, but with the benefit of hindsight I'd always be more interested in whether it cut an accurate rectangle, was easy to calibrate and maintain, and was reliable.
best thing you could ever do is speak with other owners re their particular machine, and wheedle out of them what they DONT like about it.
so what DONT I like about my wizard?
a) its bloody huge!
b) i cant toggle between imperial and metric on the fly (now come on WizSteve, there has been a software request on this for almost a year now....)
c)its not the fastest on the market by a long way.
d) it will randomly blow out the pneumatic clamps - easy to replace and cheap, but a PITA if you dont keep a spare or two in hand.
what I DO like about my wizard
a) its bloody huge!
b)its reliable as a morso and built like a tank.
c) it will relentlessly cut mounts 24/7 without needing calibration for months at a time sometimes.
d) the software is great (apart from b) in the above section)
e) support and service from framers corner is second to none, blades and spares are never a problem, and Sam knows every nut, bolt, part and screw on the machine inside out.
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WelshFramer
- Posts: 996
- Joined: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 10:03 am
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Organisation: Neuadd Bwll Framing
- Interests: Does running a framing business leave any time for interests?
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Contact:
Many thanks to everyone who replied. There's some really helpful advice in some of those replies so I'm going to print the whole lot out and make myself a checklist of questions.
One question that nobody addressed was negotiating a price. The options on the Wizard US website look pretty complicated and I've read about having to pay per corner or not and similar issues.
Are the buy/lease/rent options generally straightforward in the UK and is their scope for negotiating or is it pretty much a series of set prices?
One question that nobody addressed was negotiating a price. The options on the Wizard US website look pretty complicated and I've read about having to pay per corner or not and similar issues.
Are the buy/lease/rent options generally straightforward in the UK and is their scope for negotiating or is it pretty much a series of set prices?
Prices new are pretty much as is, not much room for negotiation
For example the Wizard:
Purchase Outright £8,500.00
Our price is complete
Or
Rental Option
£500.00 One-off Software Payment - Includes upgrades
Monthly Rental Payment £219.00
Accessories; Floorstand £275.00
The freestanding option
Wall Brackets £117.50
The space saving solution
Blades £62.00
Box of 500 BB15V Silent Compressor � 269.00 15 Litre Tank
Gunnar see Tabmaster site
Valiani Distributor in the UK is:
Prices £6-9,000 Purchase outright
Richard Winkworth
PEREGRINE LIMITED
MILL HOUSE
19 MAIN ROAD
DYKE BOURNE
PETERBOROUGH
PE10 0AF
TEL 01778393244
Trucut website
Also check out the FATG site for second hand units
as well as wessex framers
Basically you buy/lease the machine as is with no limits on usage. That seems to be a uniquely American idea. The price difference can be quite surprising when you include all the little extras such as compressors etc at entry level. One thing I would advise is to get a silent compressor!
For example the Wizard:
Purchase Outright £8,500.00
Our price is complete
Or
Rental Option
£500.00 One-off Software Payment - Includes upgrades
Monthly Rental Payment £219.00
Accessories; Floorstand £275.00
The freestanding option
Wall Brackets £117.50
The space saving solution
Blades £62.00
Box of 500 BB15V Silent Compressor � 269.00 15 Litre Tank
Gunnar see Tabmaster site
Valiani Distributor in the UK is:
Prices £6-9,000 Purchase outright
Richard Winkworth
PEREGRINE LIMITED
MILL HOUSE
19 MAIN ROAD
DYKE BOURNE
PETERBOROUGH
PE10 0AF
TEL 01778393244
Trucut website
Also check out the FATG site for second hand units
as well as wessex framers
Basically you buy/lease the machine as is with no limits on usage. That seems to be a uniquely American idea. The price difference can be quite surprising when you include all the little extras such as compressors etc at entry level. One thing I would advise is to get a silent compressor!
Giclee is just a term for a little squirt making lots of money
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
-
WelshFramer
- Posts: 996
- Joined: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 10:03 am
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Organisation: Neuadd Bwll Framing
- Interests: Does running a framing business leave any time for interests?
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Contact:
Thanks for that. Wizard seems to be the only CMC with a distributor who is up front with the prices.
Gunnar just have £0 against every model and Valiani don't seem to have any UK web presence at all.
Do you only sell one model of Wizard? The US website seems to list 2 Wizard models - the 8000 and the 8500e.
Does it come without a PC for those who already have something suitable?
Gunnar just have £0 against every model and Valiani don't seem to have any UK web presence at all.
Do you only sell one model of Wizard? The US website seems to list 2 Wizard models - the 8000 and the 8500e.
Does it come without a PC for those who already have something suitable?
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osgood
Mike,
I'm sure you will find a CMC to suit your purposes if you follow the advice given here and especially the advice in Jared's "How to buy a CMC" booklet that he has offered you.
I wouldn't be too concerned about any company that doesn't have prices posted on a website. After all we are talking about industry specific machinery and some companies don't necessarily want the general public to know the price of such equipment.
I'm sure you will find a CMC to suit your purposes if you follow the advice given here and especially the advice in Jared's "How to buy a CMC" booklet that he has offered you.
I wouldn't be too concerned about any company that doesn't have prices posted on a website. After all we are talking about industry specific machinery and some companies don't necessarily want the general public to know the price of such equipment.
-
kev@frames
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 12:06 am
- Location: Penzance Cornwall UK
- Organisation: Moonshine Framing Penzance
- Interests: 4 or 5 ...
- Location: West Cornwall, UK
- Contact:
the 8000 (like mine) is the older model, pre-last-year, and also the rental version unless they are also doing rental on the 8500. I think the major difference between the two is the driver pack and a stop button... and the speed.WelshFramer wrote:Thanks for that. Wizard seems to be the only CMC with a distributor who is up front with the prices.
Gunnar just have £0 against every model and Valiani don't seem to have any UK web presence at all.
Do you only sell one model of Wizard? The US website seems to list 2 Wizard models - the 8000 and the 8500e.
Does it come without a PC for those who already have something suitable?
The wizard package generally comes with a "free" PC, and the software is a one-off £500. Sam at Framers corner will give you the latest info/deal.
I wouldn't worry about no prices being shown, its pretty common for specialised machinery. They expect you to "have a good idea" to start with, plus if you ask, then they have your name/phone as a "lead".
Hi Mike,WelshFramer wrote:Thanks for that. Do you only sell one model of Wizard?
Don't want to give you the impression I sell Wizards as I copied the quote from the Framers corner site.
They gave me a most excellent demonstration of it's capabilities when I visited. Richard at Peregrine offered to show me the Valiani's he had in stock. Many people here seem to have Wizards, I personally own a Valiani. I bought it after a lot of careful research. I might moan about it sometimes but I love it really.
I just wanted to impartially give you all the information available.
I know you will be wowed by the demo's at the trade show, they show you all the bells and whistles. But until you really operate one yourself it is all candy floss. I felt overwhelmed when I first saw the CMC's in action. In reality you don't need half of it (maybe even 3/4) but it is useful to have extras to offer customers.
Best advice is still, visit the supplier, try the machine, come home, sit down and think. When you have tried them all, buy the one that suits you. After all you wouldn't buy a new car without a test drive.
David
Giclee is just a term for a little squirt making lots of money
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
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WelshFramer
- Posts: 996
- Joined: Wed 30 Nov, 2005 10:03 am
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Organisation: Neuadd Bwll Framing
- Interests: Does running a framing business leave any time for interests?
- Location: Llanwrtyd Wells
- Contact:
Sorry, I didn't really look to see who the post was from.daviddeer wrote: Hi Mike,
Don't want to give you the impression I sell Wizards as I copied the quote from the Framers corner site.
Not sure about that - the wife said she wanted a green car and the garage only had one of that colour.daviddeer wrote:After all you wouldn't buy a new car without a test drive.
David
Not sure about that - the wife said she wanted a green car and the garage only had one of that colour
Maybe she should buy the CMC
Just ring all the suppliers until you find a green one.
The all seem to be orange, red and silver.
Giclee is just a term for a little squirt making lots of money
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
Remember conservation Framing is an art, for everything else there's Araldite
-
Jared Davis CPF, GCF
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Tue 11 Dec, 2007 8:45 pm
- Location: Brisbane, Australia
- Organisation: Www.jareddavis.com.au
- Interests: CMC's, Running
- Location: Brisbane, Australia
- Contact:
Actually, although Tabmaster are closely affiliated, Gunnar actually have their own office in Birmingham and their own full-time, dedicated staff, covering the UK. Because of this, Gunnar don't need to work through "distributors", so you can deal with them directly, and not neccessarily through a "middle" man.david deer - Gunnar see Tabmaster site
Gunnar's website is http://www.gunnar-europe.com
GUNNAR UK
6a Albany Road
Birmingham B17 9JX
Tel: +44 (0) 7976 378 704
Fax: +44 (0) 7977 432 296
Cheers,
Jared
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MITREMAN
- Posts: 536
- Joined: Thu 07 Feb, 2008 8:05 pm
- Location: Norwich, Norfolk
- Organisation: Framers Equipment Ltd
- Interests: Conservation & box Framing memorabilia, Fishing, Sports, Keeping fit & healthy, Supporting Southend United, Computing, Cooking, Ale drinking (Camra Member), Eating out, films, Music and Concerts, DIY, Socialising, Walking, Holidays, Forest School, Wood Carving, Grandchildren and anything else I can fit in.
- Location: Northampton
- Contact:
Mount cutting machines
Hi Welsh Framer,
I expect you have a mount cutter by know but if your still looking why don't you give Framers Equipment a call, they do lots of types of mount cutters like the auto-matic and manual smart machine as well as many other manual machines.
You can visit there website at framersequipment.co.uk were your find there details ask to speak to Peter, he has a world of knowledge on all mount cutting machines and will advise you on the correct machine for your work load and maintain it for you to.
Cheers MITREMAN
I expect you have a mount cutter by know but if your still looking why don't you give Framers Equipment a call, they do lots of types of mount cutters like the auto-matic and manual smart machine as well as many other manual machines.
You can visit there website at framersequipment.co.uk were your find there details ask to speak to Peter, he has a world of knowledge on all mount cutting machines and will advise you on the correct machine for your work load and maintain it for you to.
Cheers MITREMAN