Staff
- IFGL
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Staff
I am interested to know how forum members recruit their staff.
Is a apprenticeship available? and if not why not?
What are the pros and cons of recruiting experienced staff over training them from scratch?
So far I have trained from scratch and found this to work for me but it does take a lot of time up.
Who employs part time staff and would 2 part timers be better than 1 full time?
I have found some posts relating to this subject on another thread very interesting and helpful.
Regards
Darren
Is a apprenticeship available? and if not why not?
What are the pros and cons of recruiting experienced staff over training them from scratch?
So far I have trained from scratch and found this to work for me but it does take a lot of time up.
Who employs part time staff and would 2 part timers be better than 1 full time?
I have found some posts relating to this subject on another thread very interesting and helpful.
Regards
Darren
-
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2006 12:06 am
- Location: Penzance Cornwall UK
- Organisation: Moonshine Framing Penzance
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Re: Staff
finding framers has always been difficult for me, and most of the framers I know have the same problem finding framing staff.
training from scratch has the obvious disadvantages of being time consuming, and you'll often invest a lot of time and they'll leave just when they are any good, or go and try to set up for themselves.
if you make in batches its best to give one person one job, rather than try and get an all-rounder. eg a mat cutter, frame maker, glazier/finisher.
For example someone to run a CMC can be up and running without supervision by the end of the day and there is your mount cutting "dapartment".
trouble with that is that people get bored glazing all day, or finishing all day, or cutting mats all day because your batch system has turned them into a drone in a mini-factory.
it may be coincidence, but the best framers I have had, two of whom are still with us, have been ex kitchen fitters/joiners. so don't overlook the building/joinery trades. there are a lot of young lads in their 20s and early 30s working on sites in the winter would give their right arm to be in a nice warm workshop for the same money.
both of my framers are college-trained joiners, both had quite a bit of time fitting bespoke kitchens, so they are good with oak and other woods and arrive with an attention to detail and accurate measurements are second nature.
another chap who came to help out as a subcontractor was great (and is also a forum member here) design graduate, boatbuilder and also with kitchen fitting experience.
ab-initio framers: I tried taking on mature adults to train. ended up sending them on a course with mike royall (forum member) in bristol. which was good, because of his teaching skills. Teaches a trainee in three days what you will in three months and they come back able to stretch canvases, use all the tools safely etc. A worthwhile shortcut in training and good value for money.
anyway these didn't work out for various reasons.
its hit and miss recruiting.
Best advice I have is to learn from my mistakes and if someone isn't shaping up get rid of them sharpish. don't waste weeks or months of your time and money on them if you aren't sure.
If you feel they will "probably turn out all right in the end" it means they probably wont.
school leavers and most college leavers: forget it unless you want your workshop to be like the jeremy kyle show, and can tolerate grunting non communicative illiterate innumerate arrogant numbskulls who have been brainwashed with a sense of entitlement that you and the rest of the world owes them a living and think they are doing you a favour just by turning up. Thats 90% of what the schools are turning out.
full time vs part time? Full time all the way.
when we have had part timers its funny how they'll all find a second job, then the second job starts to take priority over you, and asda or tesco or whoever they work for want them to come in on the days they are supposed to be working for you, even if you are technically the "main" employer you'll find yourself working to fit in with their shelf filling rota in their other job.
all pretty negative so far, eh.
recruiting experienced staff if you can find them. They will need retraining. They will invariably have either been in a factory (easier to change their work methods) or a quiet "art-ponce" place and will never be up to the workload.
everyone will be surprised at your volumes of work.
I have a framer who has been with me seven years now and still come out once a week with "I can't believe how many people have frames".
so when recruiting you have to emphasise that they will be very busy because most people think its a lightweight job poncing about with a couple of frames a day. Thats the key to getting the right people.
so that probably wasn't a lot of help?
training from scratch has the obvious disadvantages of being time consuming, and you'll often invest a lot of time and they'll leave just when they are any good, or go and try to set up for themselves.
if you make in batches its best to give one person one job, rather than try and get an all-rounder. eg a mat cutter, frame maker, glazier/finisher.
For example someone to run a CMC can be up and running without supervision by the end of the day and there is your mount cutting "dapartment".
trouble with that is that people get bored glazing all day, or finishing all day, or cutting mats all day because your batch system has turned them into a drone in a mini-factory.
it may be coincidence, but the best framers I have had, two of whom are still with us, have been ex kitchen fitters/joiners. so don't overlook the building/joinery trades. there are a lot of young lads in their 20s and early 30s working on sites in the winter would give their right arm to be in a nice warm workshop for the same money.
both of my framers are college-trained joiners, both had quite a bit of time fitting bespoke kitchens, so they are good with oak and other woods and arrive with an attention to detail and accurate measurements are second nature.
another chap who came to help out as a subcontractor was great (and is also a forum member here) design graduate, boatbuilder and also with kitchen fitting experience.
ab-initio framers: I tried taking on mature adults to train. ended up sending them on a course with mike royall (forum member) in bristol. which was good, because of his teaching skills. Teaches a trainee in three days what you will in three months and they come back able to stretch canvases, use all the tools safely etc. A worthwhile shortcut in training and good value for money.
anyway these didn't work out for various reasons.
its hit and miss recruiting.
Best advice I have is to learn from my mistakes and if someone isn't shaping up get rid of them sharpish. don't waste weeks or months of your time and money on them if you aren't sure.
If you feel they will "probably turn out all right in the end" it means they probably wont.
school leavers and most college leavers: forget it unless you want your workshop to be like the jeremy kyle show, and can tolerate grunting non communicative illiterate innumerate arrogant numbskulls who have been brainwashed with a sense of entitlement that you and the rest of the world owes them a living and think they are doing you a favour just by turning up. Thats 90% of what the schools are turning out.
full time vs part time? Full time all the way.
when we have had part timers its funny how they'll all find a second job, then the second job starts to take priority over you, and asda or tesco or whoever they work for want them to come in on the days they are supposed to be working for you, even if you are technically the "main" employer you'll find yourself working to fit in with their shelf filling rota in their other job.
all pretty negative so far, eh.
recruiting experienced staff if you can find them. They will need retraining. They will invariably have either been in a factory (easier to change their work methods) or a quiet "art-ponce" place and will never be up to the workload.
everyone will be surprised at your volumes of work.
I have a framer who has been with me seven years now and still come out once a week with "I can't believe how many people have frames".
so when recruiting you have to emphasise that they will be very busy because most people think its a lightweight job poncing about with a couple of frames a day. Thats the key to getting the right people.
so that probably wasn't a lot of help?
- IFGL
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Re: Staff
Thank you, that actually was a lot of help, confirming to me some of my own thoughts and helping me to dismiss thoughts of part time positions.
we did have a fella start on a work placement, he had been out of work for 2 years and told his job seekers officer he would like to try picture framing, they rang us up and asked if we minded showing him the ropes for a couple of weeks, this guy was 50 years old and I thought why not, long story short, he lasted 30 minutes, he thought he would be poncing around making 2 or 3 frames a day drinking coffee and chatting, I think this just confirms what you were saying.
we did have a fella start on a work placement, he had been out of work for 2 years and told his job seekers officer he would like to try picture framing, they rang us up and asked if we minded showing him the ropes for a couple of weeks, this guy was 50 years old and I thought why not, long story short, he lasted 30 minutes, he thought he would be poncing around making 2 or 3 frames a day drinking coffee and chatting, I think this just confirms what you were saying.
- Steve N
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Re: Staff
As usual, a great post, Kev, really enjoy reading them.
At the moment I'm not looking to take on staff, but I think I might have to before the year is out, so will be watching this thread with intrest
At the moment I'm not looking to take on staff, but I think I might have to before the year is out, so will be watching this thread with intrest
Steve CEO GCF (020)
Believed in Time Travel since 2035
Proud to sell Ready Made Frames
http://www.frontierpictureframes.com
http://www.designerpicturemounts.com/
Believed in Time Travel since 2035
Proud to sell Ready Made Frames
http://www.frontierpictureframes.com
http://www.designerpicturemounts.com/
- A Few More Words
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Re: Staff
I think Kev,s response above is spot on.
If you can, I think its most important to hire for attitude then train for skills
In any case, its a very important element in your business...as
It is by far the highest cost for such a labour intensive business ....much higher
cost than any machine we might buy.
Whenever you start someone, be sure to lay down very clear guidelines
And expectations and if you think early on youve got it wrong...you probably have...so cut your losses and move on.....next.....theres someone out there
wholl be great for you . Remember, youll never make money
with people coming amd going..only with a stable, willing, adaptable workforce.
If you can, I think its most important to hire for attitude then train for skills
In any case, its a very important element in your business...as
It is by far the highest cost for such a labour intensive business ....much higher
cost than any machine we might buy.
Whenever you start someone, be sure to lay down very clear guidelines
And expectations and if you think early on youve got it wrong...you probably have...so cut your losses and move on.....next.....theres someone out there
wholl be great for you . Remember, youll never make money
with people coming amd going..only with a stable, willing, adaptable workforce.
Fine Framers
www.fineframers.com
www.fineframers.com
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- Posts: 1951
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Re: Staff
thanks for the positive comments.
Few More Words is right: its important to get the right people more so these days than ever before.
Specially with the higher staff costs (holiday entitlements, pensions, leave entitlements)
Right person, right attitude and the fact that framing isn't rocket science should make it easy.
But attracting the right people is hard because they can't see a "career" - hence the two-frames-a-day and cups of coffee people it attracts.
Recruitment is the biggest problem in this business imho.
Few More Words is right: its important to get the right people more so these days than ever before.
Specially with the higher staff costs (holiday entitlements, pensions, leave entitlements)
Right person, right attitude and the fact that framing isn't rocket science should make it easy.
But attracting the right people is hard because they can't see a "career" - hence the two-frames-a-day and cups of coffee people it attracts.
Recruitment is the biggest problem in this business imho.
-
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Re: Staff
Don't we know it! I have had staff problems in the past, but not anymore!kev@frames wrote:Recruitment is the biggest problem in this business imho.
I'm pleased to say that I now have two really dependable part time staff, who I regard as friends. Neither of them are as fast as I am, but they are both committed to quality and a pleasure to work with.
Mark Lacey
“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
Re: Staff
There's two sides to our shop - framing and ................. everything else!
There's no apprenticeship for either side - don't know why. Maybe there is one for 'retail' but it would not be specific enough for anything we do, bar maybe actual sales techniques, we need our employees to know what we do and how we (WE) do it - inside-out! We need them to be mini-versions of us (Me and Mrs R)
Mrs R recruits by press-ganging suitable customers and one of those has been with us for 13 or 14 years. I recruit by placing job ads, from the window and our newsletter, to the job pages of local and not-so-local papers. But the best employees I ever had happened to be customers, including my current framer, an artist (and a V good one) who always chose well.
Always have to bear in mind that our staff are not just 'staff' - they're work colleagues, you have to get along with them - wouldn't want a top notch geezer/geezeress, that would bore us shitless, or us him/her come to that.
Experienced staff? Only ever had one claiming to be (my side) - nightmare! I think, seeing as there is no sort of apprenticeship etc, that you're far better off training from scratch - with, of course, anything a prospective employee could bring, taken in to consideration. There is of course the GCF qualification, only ever had one GCF apply - and he actually/probably would have been fine, even if he was one of the first ever ever GCFs and the last place he worked at mounted needlework, and lots of other things,with animal skin glue from a big smelly double boiler that was on the go all day!
All (I say 'all' - that's three) of our staff are part time, but they all do 5 days (different) and all of them are flexible; with little notice they could each or all come in full time for a week or more. They can cover for each other and us - me and Mrs R ( We got a thing going on .. we both know that it's wrong ....sorry)
What we want is people that know our foibles - like, say, how I posted this in relation to the first post with no quotes.
Reckon 'Members Only' is really the place for this though.
There's no apprenticeship for either side - don't know why. Maybe there is one for 'retail' but it would not be specific enough for anything we do, bar maybe actual sales techniques, we need our employees to know what we do and how we (WE) do it - inside-out! We need them to be mini-versions of us (Me and Mrs R)
Mrs R recruits by press-ganging suitable customers and one of those has been with us for 13 or 14 years. I recruit by placing job ads, from the window and our newsletter, to the job pages of local and not-so-local papers. But the best employees I ever had happened to be customers, including my current framer, an artist (and a V good one) who always chose well.
Always have to bear in mind that our staff are not just 'staff' - they're work colleagues, you have to get along with them - wouldn't want a top notch geezer/geezeress, that would bore us shitless, or us him/her come to that.
Experienced staff? Only ever had one claiming to be (my side) - nightmare! I think, seeing as there is no sort of apprenticeship etc, that you're far better off training from scratch - with, of course, anything a prospective employee could bring, taken in to consideration. There is of course the GCF qualification, only ever had one GCF apply - and he actually/probably would have been fine, even if he was one of the first ever ever GCFs and the last place he worked at mounted needlework, and lots of other things,with animal skin glue from a big smelly double boiler that was on the go all day!
All (I say 'all' - that's three) of our staff are part time, but they all do 5 days (different) and all of them are flexible; with little notice they could each or all come in full time for a week or more. They can cover for each other and us - me and Mrs R ( We got a thing going on .. we both know that it's wrong ....sorry)
What we want is people that know our foibles - like, say, how I posted this in relation to the first post with no quotes.
Reckon 'Members Only' is really the place for this though.
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Re: Staff
Hi Darren
As a former employee of a picture framer, perhaps a few words from the other side of the fence may help?
I used to work part-time, and had a very flexible attitude towards the work I was asked to do, and the hours I was asked to work. My employers were quite laid back, (a bit too laid back, if you ask me, but it worked for them), and I received most of my basic training from either one of them, or my co-worker, but it was very much a case of learn-as-you-go.
I saw other members of staff come and go. One who didn't like serving customers, using knives, or measuring, and a yoof with the aforementioned attitude problem.
I came into the profession quite by chance, but from an arty background. I soon realised that I loved the job, and was very keen to learn everything, and that really was where the rot set in. Unfortunately, I wasn't allowed to use the backroom equipment (Morso, underpinner etc), as apparently, this isn't suitable work for a woman. And although I enjoyed serving customers, I found it a bit embarrassing to use the 'pluck a figure out of the air' method of pricing, and then hastily scribbling the order down on a scrap of paper. Design and selling-up were not phrases attributed to our framing, and these were not really encouraged. I used to devour the framing magazines when they came in each month, and suggested that I try for the GCF qualification (at my own expense). However as I wasn't allowed to use the equipment, it would have been quite difficult to get the necessary experience! Eventually, when the other member of staff left, I became the butt of all jokes, which was somewhat tiring and in some instances, downright insulting.
Anyway, as you can imagine, I began to dream of deep rebates, fillets, and hand finishing. (Oops, that sounds really rude!). And the time came (after a couple o' three years), to hand in my notice. I decided to take the plunge and start up on my own, despite being a woman! After three years of working from home (teaching myself how to use the equipment), and doing ok, the business is currently on hold whilst we consider our options here in France-watch this space!
So, the long and short of it is, I was one of those pesky, time-wasting employees who got trained up (of sorts), and then ran off to start their own business. My advice to any potential employers is (as suggested in previous posts), to think carefully about what you want from your employees, and appoint accordingly. I don't know if this helps at all, but thought that I'd add my two pennies.
As a former employee of a picture framer, perhaps a few words from the other side of the fence may help?
I used to work part-time, and had a very flexible attitude towards the work I was asked to do, and the hours I was asked to work. My employers were quite laid back, (a bit too laid back, if you ask me, but it worked for them), and I received most of my basic training from either one of them, or my co-worker, but it was very much a case of learn-as-you-go.
I saw other members of staff come and go. One who didn't like serving customers, using knives, or measuring, and a yoof with the aforementioned attitude problem.
I came into the profession quite by chance, but from an arty background. I soon realised that I loved the job, and was very keen to learn everything, and that really was where the rot set in. Unfortunately, I wasn't allowed to use the backroom equipment (Morso, underpinner etc), as apparently, this isn't suitable work for a woman. And although I enjoyed serving customers, I found it a bit embarrassing to use the 'pluck a figure out of the air' method of pricing, and then hastily scribbling the order down on a scrap of paper. Design and selling-up were not phrases attributed to our framing, and these were not really encouraged. I used to devour the framing magazines when they came in each month, and suggested that I try for the GCF qualification (at my own expense). However as I wasn't allowed to use the equipment, it would have been quite difficult to get the necessary experience! Eventually, when the other member of staff left, I became the butt of all jokes, which was somewhat tiring and in some instances, downright insulting.
Anyway, as you can imagine, I began to dream of deep rebates, fillets, and hand finishing. (Oops, that sounds really rude!). And the time came (after a couple o' three years), to hand in my notice. I decided to take the plunge and start up on my own, despite being a woman! After three years of working from home (teaching myself how to use the equipment), and doing ok, the business is currently on hold whilst we consider our options here in France-watch this space!
So, the long and short of it is, I was one of those pesky, time-wasting employees who got trained up (of sorts), and then ran off to start their own business. My advice to any potential employers is (as suggested in previous posts), to think carefully about what you want from your employees, and appoint accordingly. I don't know if this helps at all, but thought that I'd add my two pennies.
-
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Re: Staff
nice to hear it from the other side of the fence.
think carefully about what you want from your employees, and appoint accordingly. makes a lot of sense.
if you aren't sure of exactly what you expect them to be doing, how can they be. "generally helping out" isn't much of a job description.
think carefully about what you want from your employees, and appoint accordingly. makes a lot of sense.
if you aren't sure of exactly what you expect them to be doing, how can they be. "generally helping out" isn't much of a job description.
- Framerpicture
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Re: Staff
Might have to wait a year for it to come into effect, but any one who employs staff should welcome the chancellors announcement that he is wiping away of the first £2,000 of employers NIC.
http://www.churchgategallery.co.uk/
Follow us on Twitter@PorlockArt
Follow us on Twitter@PorlockArt
- IFGL
- Posts: 3087
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- Location: Sheffield UK
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- Location: Sheffield
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Re: Staff
Thanks for the replies plenty of good advice there, I have some mulling over to do in the next couple of months.
-
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Re: Staff
I've got a question for those that hire part-time staff.
Do you hire them under the basis that they will work 2-3 days every week throughout the year? Or do you only get them in when it's busy? i.e/ in January, can you say "don't come in as there isn't much work on"?
It's just that I'm doing my business plan atm and looking at Jan/feb estimations, I will be making a huge loss mainly due to staff expenses (and lack of sales of course). I am planning on hiring full-time staff, but the idea of hiring part-time for busy periods only does appeal, but I doubt any empolyee would be happy with that situation.
Do you hire them under the basis that they will work 2-3 days every week throughout the year? Or do you only get them in when it's busy? i.e/ in January, can you say "don't come in as there isn't much work on"?
It's just that I'm doing my business plan atm and looking at Jan/feb estimations, I will be making a huge loss mainly due to staff expenses (and lack of sales of course). I am planning on hiring full-time staff, but the idea of hiring part-time for busy periods only does appeal, but I doubt any empolyee would be happy with that situation.
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Re: Staff
Although I don't employ anyone, I imagine it depends on who you can get in. A friend of mine managed to employ 2 people (unskilled) on a voluntary basis for a 3 month probationary period leading to full time employment. When he advertised for the position he said he didn't get many applying but the ones that did were amazing.
If I ever want to employ then that would be my first attempt. It might not work, but then you might get a very keen apprentice costing you very little until they're trained to get on with at least one element of the process.
FFrames, I'm pretty sure there are some freelance framers out there as well if it's a matter of some assistance during busy spells.
If I ever want to employ then that would be my first attempt. It might not work, but then you might get a very keen apprentice costing you very little until they're trained to get on with at least one element of the process.
FFrames, I'm pretty sure there are some freelance framers out there as well if it's a matter of some assistance during busy spells.
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Re: Staff
Thanks simoonez...
It's more a case of not wanting staff in quiet periods rather that needing staff in busy periods. I imagine I will need at least one full-time employee (or two part-time) throughout the year, but knowing how quiet we were in January in my past job, I am a bit worried about the extra staff overheads in that period.. I guess I'll just have to suck it up?
It's more a case of not wanting staff in quiet periods rather that needing staff in busy periods. I imagine I will need at least one full-time employee (or two part-time) throughout the year, but knowing how quiet we were in January in my past job, I am a bit worried about the extra staff overheads in that period.. I guess I'll just have to suck it up?
- Tim
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Re: Staff
Can't remember which thread it was on now, but general concensus on that discussion was that your first member of staff should be a CMC
Mine certainly will be.....unless they build a robot that can take accurate customer order details!
Mine certainly will be.....unless they build a robot that can take accurate customer order details!
Youth and experience are no match for age and treachery...
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Re: Staff
Can a cmc cover you for holidays or days off
I have two full time staff (well one who does 5 days and one who does 4).
During busy periods we all work extra, I do 6 days a week, the 4 days a weeker does 5, this seems to cover it.
During quiet times the 5 days a weeker does 4, and I take time off. We also do the spring clean, stock take etc and it usually picks up after Easter.
I have two full time staff (well one who does 5 days and one who does 4).
During busy periods we all work extra, I do 6 days a week, the 4 days a weeker does 5, this seems to cover it.
During quiet times the 5 days a weeker does 4, and I take time off. We also do the spring clean, stock take etc and it usually picks up after Easter.
-
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Re: Staff
I employ my part time staff all year round. Employees are not a resource, but real people with real needs too.
Commit yourself to your staff, be nice to them and they will commit themselves to you. It works for me!
Commit yourself to your staff, be nice to them and they will commit themselves to you. It works for me!
Mark Lacey
“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
- Steve N
- Posts: 2992
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Re: Staff
FFrames wrote
"It's just that I'm doing my business plan atm and looking at Jan/feb estimations, I will be making a huge loss mainly due to staff expenses (and lack of sales of course). I am planning on hiring full-time staff, but the idea of hiring part-time for busy periods only does appeal, but I doubt any empolyee would be happy with that situation."
You just don't know if this is correct that Jan/Feb will be low sales, this last Jan/Feb have been the best so far, in fact the business next to me told me Jan was their best month in 37 years and they are not doing online sales. In fact you may not need any staff at all for the first couple of years
"It's just that I'm doing my business plan atm and looking at Jan/feb estimations, I will be making a huge loss mainly due to staff expenses (and lack of sales of course). I am planning on hiring full-time staff, but the idea of hiring part-time for busy periods only does appeal, but I doubt any empolyee would be happy with that situation."
You just don't know if this is correct that Jan/Feb will be low sales, this last Jan/Feb have been the best so far, in fact the business next to me told me Jan was their best month in 37 years and they are not doing online sales. In fact you may not need any staff at all for the first couple of years
Steve CEO GCF (020)
Believed in Time Travel since 2035
Proud to sell Ready Made Frames
http://www.frontierpictureframes.com
http://www.designerpicturemounts.com/
Believed in Time Travel since 2035
Proud to sell Ready Made Frames
http://www.frontierpictureframes.com
http://www.designerpicturemounts.com/