How much?!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 18 Jan, 2007 7:12 pm

My price (Incl of VAT) would be £53:78* with artcare mount and artcare foamcore back.

With Clearcolour plus @£26 per sq ft that would be an extra £57: 79, so £111:57.

*Going by the list price of £2:50 per metre or around 75p per foot, but I will not be paying that much. In fact all the main components are discounted by the suppliers and the only one passed on is the 'Museum' glass.

Framerpicture · Post by **Framerpicture** » Thu 18 Jan, 2007 8:29 pm

Hi
I'm new to this forum and its very interesting reading.
I've been framing for nearly 20 years and have found pricing and what customers percieve to be a fair price a hard nut to crack!
I took the decision a few years ago to try and hit a price point that, makes me a resonable profit and dosen't have the customer having to ask for a chair!

It seems we are charging less than most on here but we do keep very busy and have a lot of repeat business.
The retail price we charge for a 20 x 16" frame (75p foot cost)
with a single white core mount and acid free barrier and plain glass with all the fittings is £36.00 inc vat

In the end its all down to the bottom line . We make just in excess of 20% NET profit on a fairly substantial turnover.

Will Rayner GCF

Post by **John** » Thu 18 Jan, 2007 9:25 pm

Hi Will,

Welcome to the forum.

Your post illustrates the importance of volume when trying to establish a pricing strategy.

Many one man bands just could not survive if they charged the rates that you find quite profitable.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Thu 18 Jan, 2007 10:31 pm

Our price £65.54 inc. vat on the initial spec. Given the same materials are always finished to a high standard. Back of pic. as important as the front. Rings and cords fitted ready for hanging. Customers hate doing even this simple task!
When it comes to profit, that sum gives us plenty.

First question from the accountant is - 'what is the turnover for the year?' Next 'the all important gross profit percentage?' Should range from 65% to 80%, which in the retail market is pretty healthy. Especially when you consider supermarkets operate at below 8%.

We all need to charge relative to overheads and local affluence; so everyones prices will by that definition will vary.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 18 Jan, 2007 10:35 pm

Have we discussed material costs bar moulding?

Mine - list (not incl VAT) would be about £7:55.

That does not account for wastage, but there would be little if any and I'd only be worried about the moulding anyway, the rest would definitely be used and the moulding would leave a useful length from a nine to ten foot length as long as you had more from the same batch or it were one that is consistent from batch to batch.

Post by **John** » Fri 19 Jan, 2007 6:54 am

As a comparison it would be interesting to see how much the customer would pay for the same frame but 24 x 30in.

In Belfast we would be looking for £95 incl vat.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri 19 Jan, 2007 7:52 am

24" x 30" (610 x 762mm)

Arq White Core. Float Glass. Art-Bak backing.

£96.47

absolute framing · Post by **absolute framing** » Fri 19 Jan, 2007 9:01 am

24 x 30 as per my previous spec.

Euro 130
Funny Money £ 87

This includes VAT @21%

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri 19 Jan, 2007 9:23 am

£97.17 (inc VAT)

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 20 Jan, 2007 8:47 am

a slightly different viewpoint - how much would you charge a customer who came in for a replacement glass on a 24" x 30" ( personally dont use imperial - but for the sake of simplicity etc).

Post by **John** » Sat 20 Jan, 2007 9:10 am

Glass price £13.40

+ Fitting, £5 - £15 depending on the complexity.

(All prices vat incl)

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 20 Jan, 2007 9:43 am

I am assuming that you have to remove the tape from back - remove broken glass - clean up media - make sure no glass chips etc. cut clean and re fix - re tape - and in my case always replace hangers - wire and bumpers. This procedure would take me more time than a new frame - it can be messy if the tape doesn't come off easily and yet we generally charge less than than a standard job less the cost of the frame. I changed my attitude to how I price this sort of job and talk to the customer about what they want and basically treat it as a re frame. Of course if its a relatively new frame then we normally find its easy to do and the cost is minimal. If its old and decrepit and the customer values the picture I will approach the job as a restore - new glass , new mount if necessary and almost always new barrier and new back. Frame will be cleaned and repaired.

Customers are always pleased to have their picture back looking as good as new. My minimum charge for this would be £47

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat 20 Jan, 2007 4:15 pm

610 x 760mm Glas price = £14.26
plus fitting fee of £5.00. Will always use new D rings and cord.

In fairness Mark you did only say replacement glass.

The rest depend on the state of the subject inside the frame and the customers other requirements.

So yes, I can see where your figure comes from and mine would probably come close to yours.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 20 Jan, 2007 9:31 pm

OK 30 x 24" spec as above - £71:15

Replace glass same size - £27 and that is the same if it is a brand new Ikea type thing that isn't even sealed or an antique with pine slats held in with nails that sets me off sneezing when I open it up! (But I may well get the calculator out on a box frame etc)

The reason is that I rarely just replace the glass in these, and I suppose the same is true for a lot of the 'Ikea' ones as the broken glass may have damaged the mount etc etc.

With the older ones it may go something like this...... "You see how the cut bevel of that mount is very brown? ......... and this backing is probably directly against the back of the image and ....... actually this is worth putting UV filtering glass on .....

If they go for new mount, undermount, backing and UV glass the bill is now £75, after being presented with that figure (breakdown - mount and undermount (artcare foamboard, so backing included) £11 each, UV glass (Tru Vu Cons Clear) £35, fitting £18 ) Sometimes they will say, "So, how much more just to re-frame it"

I love these jobs!

(We do our best to always open these old things in front of the customer so that they can see the damage, also to see if it is WORTH an undermount - it may be stuck to something nasty with something nastier and - sometimes, but rarely we have things sent off to a conservator for removal and de-acidising(?)

This is fun!

Frameus · Post by **Frameus** » Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:20 pm

OK everybody, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. I was just trying to keep the sums simple and, of course, failed. There's a little Tim Henman in everybody. Thanks very much for all yor replies. It seems that a 20" x 16" watercolour can still be framed for as little as £36.00 or as much as you care to charge. I'll stick to my £56.00.

My opinion on discounts to customers, passing on discounts from manufacturers and wether you pay £30.00 a year or £700.00 a minute in rent are simply that the job is worth what it is worth. That is a price that the customer feels comfortable paying and which will make him come back again. Not one that makes people come from 28 miles away, because if that happens, you are too cheap . My discounts from suppliers are simply that, and as such are irrelevant to the customer. As someone has mentioned before, giving the customer a discount means that it comes out of your pocket. so, if done, it should be an investment against potential for furture work. We work on the Tesco principal here. Try asking them for a discount, or leaving the store with the words - "I'll pop in during the week and settle up".

Incidentally we get small business rate rebates, pay a small rent and have two employees, who put in a ull week between them.
Just letting my opinions tumble out here. I have an enormous opinion on charging £36.00 for that sample framing job. If your business is that efficient and proficient, it is down to capital investment on your part and working hard. You invested in machinery to get a return. Charging low prices like that is somewhat counter productive. It also leads people to believe that it is the going rate. It isn't, as has been demonstrated in the recent exercise.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 21 Jan, 2007 10:53 pm

Well I would not knock Will's price of £36 - going by my own material costs he's made a 5x mark up on all materials and if he is as deft as me he did it in 10 minutes.

Look at it another way - I sell a shedload of stuff bar framing and art - stuff I simply buy in and sell on for a 100% mark up - generally, but never less.

I can spend far longer than 10 mins getting Beatrix Potter figures out of a glass cabinet for customers to umm and ahh over that cost fifteen quid!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 21 Jan, 2007 11:08 pm

Frameus wrote: .....the job is worth what it is worth. That is a price that the customer feels comfortable paying and which will make him come back again. Not one that makes people come from 28 miles away, because if that happens, you are too cheap .

Yes they may travel for price - sometimes without realising they are writing off their savings in travel expenses.

But they'll also travel that far, and further, for quailty - not neccessarily of materials - they don't want to know about zeolites and nanometers - but of the skill of good choice of mount colour, balance and choice of frame. Also for a good selection and a feeling of being at ease.

People come here from Eastbourne, Oxford and, er, Spain!

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 8:36 am

We too have customers who travel from a distance. Even those who have moved away from the area and are back visiting relatives or whatever. Establishing a good reputation over the years for quality,design ideas and choice is vital. Certainly they never come to us because we are cheap. Wer'e not. Value is what the true customer wants.

It's only Ikea that paople will travel absolute miles to that may break the rule; and we have one coming down here in the initial planning stage.

Framerpicture · Post by **Framerpicture** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 7:13 pm

Is Frameus suggesting we have a cartel for frame pricing?

At £36.00 or £30.63 net of vat we make a gross profit of at least 6.5 times the material cost.Due to the volume of materials we buy we do get a good discount on all our supplies and do pass this on to the customer.

With wastage, labour ( including 15mins with the customer to make a selection) , overhead and vat taken into account the net profit is in excess of £18.00.

Which in itself dosen't seem a lot, but as we operate 6 days a week and depending on the time of year make between 60-150 frames a week . You can see that my price is very profitable to me.

Our price means customers are happy to come and see us and are also happy to tell their friends .With the additon of a good database, it means we don't have to preach to the converted and spend fortunes on advertising.
.

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Mon 22 Jan, 2007 9:52 pm

this year we are about 45.00 to 65.00 for the first job.
and £60 to £80 for the new bigger one.
Of course the buying in "per foot" price bears no relation to what it sells for in many cases. Hence we have reverted to a banding system "A,B, C etc" rather than using an exact price calculation for each and every moulding. all the band A cost the same price, all the band b etc.

Since speaking to a collegue in a neighbouring town I've come to the conclusion you must also allow for complete BS from the customer.

He has customers who tell him that we are expensive in comparison, we have customers who tell us he is expensive. Its usually complete bollocks, because he has his per metre/foot moulding prices written on the mouldings, we just have a code, so they have nothing to compare, and we have very few similar mouldings, many customers are trying to tell you what you want to hear and by saying the "opposition" is expensive they are angling for a cheap job. probably subconcious.

If a moulding is a good seller and everyone tells you that its a bargain, its easy to shift it up a band, and saves a lot of work when the prices change.

I know that this is not using the best of Estlites features, the downloadable moulding prices, but I guess we all adapt to our local market and way of doing things.

Just a thought