How much?!

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Underpinner
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How much?!

Post by Underpinner »

I wonder whether anyone else on this forum feels, as I do that, despite various articles in the trade press over several years, there has been little really helpful guidance regarding what we should be charging for bespoke framing? For example, there is not much point is asking a bunch of framers what each one charges to make a 20 x 16 frame unless some of the component prices are defined at the outset. Also, I do not recall seeing any suggestions as to what a framer is worth per hour.

As I see it, prices are made up from two components: (a) Fixed annual overheads (including wages and an allowance for clear profit), divided by productive hours per year to give a chargeable hourly rate. (b) Material costs (including an allowance for wastage) - which will vary with the type and size of the frame.

None of us has much scope to alter our overheads or our basic material costs but we might have some scope to vary our material wastage, profit allowance and time spent on each frame - assuming of course that we know what these factors are costing in the first place.

When customers ask me for a discount I am tempted to point out that I cannot get discount on rent, rates, telephone bills, materials etc. and that the only place in my costings where I have scope to reduce the price of their frame(s) is my wages - and is there any particular reason why I should work for less? Which is also why I get angry with radio commentators who encourage the public to haggle with small businesses.

Perhaps it would help this discussion if I invited you to comment on some actual figures: For example: A 20 x 16in. (glass size) frame for an original watercolour, conservation board single mount and undermount with Corri 2 backing board and standard 2mm float glass, D rings, cord and frame bumpers. Moulding £2.50 per metre before VAT. The finished job £59.

I await the howls of derision!

John W
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Merlin
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Post by Merlin »

John W. Basically it is what the market will bear. In fact today, I had a visitor from Dorset, who looked at my Moulding chevrons, where I have the price per metre displayed. (that is trade cost +VAT * markup). He said I was a lot cheaper than him for the identical moulding code.

However I will try to answer.. What size mount borders are you using. Is the moulding price you have given, the trade price. will assume so ...

My costing programme (self written) works on input of image size, then adds on the mount border sizes to get the costs..

but will assume some figures and come back.. can always change them later.
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Post by Merlin »

Image size 410 x 310. Mount borders 50. Whitecore mount. 2mm float glass. Corri III backing. Single D rings, cord, bumpers.

My costs £53 so £6 difference isnt that bad...

Discounts... they can dream... but (a little one) if they are regular customers, i will knock a few pounds off if they pay there and then.
John GCF
Arfinnan

Pricing

Post by Arfinnan »

The one way I have found that customers do not argue with is the computer screen! I haven't checked out what I would charge for the job under discussion, but that sounds about right. When people look a bit shocked, I have a habit of reminding them how much they pay per hour to have their car serviced. After all, they expect us to take as much care of their artwork don't they? The worst ones are always the ladies with their embroidery. I keep some work of my own in its various stages to show them the work that goes on hidden inside the frame. 'A workman is worthy of his hire'. I refuse to be the monkey that works for peanuts.
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Post by John »

We would charge £40.90 for this job, but knock off the 90p.

Major re-think on its way though. It is years since we reviewed our pricing strategy. For example, we have been charging the same for mounts for the last 8 years or so, ever since we went over exclusively to conservation.

Your post should be a reminder to us all that we must keep our pricing under constant review.

Many thanks,

JR
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How Much?!

Post by Underpinner »

Am watching the replies here with interest. A six-pound difference from my quote is not too bad, especially as whitecore was used (why not use the "real thing" ie. conservation?). And I think John will be right to review his prices urgently.

This is one of those sweeping generalisations (which are just asking for trouble) but, would it not be fair to say that most businesses that rent retail premises will need to be charging at least around £30 per hour for their time charge (ie. before materials are added). Also, is the framing carrying its fair share of the costs in those businesses which also do other things (such as galleries, photographers shops etc.).

And how much should a framer be paid per hour? Here's a basic sum: If you work 40 hours per week at 48 weeks per year, and your productive hours (at 66% of the total) are 1267; you will need £10 per hour for wages alone (not counting any other costs) to have about £1000 per month wages (before tax and NI). This is considered breadline income now, with the national average income around £20,000. Is this all we are worth?
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Post by Guest »

John W (too many Johns onboard now !!!) Remiss of me, but ABT did two very good articles last year on pricing. When given 3 different frame jobs to do.. Admitedly they were Global UK. I left the magazines in the shop and cannot remember the edition.. Will look again tomorrow and come back to you.
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Post by Merlin »

Sorry... doing a Dermot here... Forgot to log in before i sent that last reply. So this is just to let you know that it is from me and not anonymous.
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Post by Merlin »

Well, this is disapointing, I had thought and hoped that more people would have taken part in this thread.
Do Picture Framers know this site exists !!!
John GCF
markw

pricing

Post by markw »

£53 to answer the ? - Pricing for a straight forward job should be relativly easy - and it is good to compare prices. some of the points about how much per hour are we charging per hour are probably more relavant - how much do you charge to reglaze a frame - you quote on the spot - certainly knowing how much the material cost are - but how much have you added for dismantaling - cleaning off all that crappy tape - and than putting it all back together again -often taking longer than starting from scratch with a new frame - i will put money on it that you charge an unrealistic price for the job - because you know that peoples expectations are that its just a piece of glass.
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Post by Underpinner »

Yes it is disappointing that, with 85 "views", only six individuals have responded to this topic - which must be THE most important topic of all.

To respond directly to the question from MarkW, I aim to charge 30 pounds per hour plus materials - and it would need to be a lot more if the rent and rates in my location were not subsidised. Out of this I reckon my gross hourly wage is still in single figures.

We all know that it can be quicker to make a brand new frame throughout than to dismantle, clean and reassemble an old one and this needs to be fully explained to the customer. As does the fact that they will be paying 35-45 pounds per hour for the time that their car is being worked on in the garage, 15-25 pounds for the plumber's callout before he does anything.

When the facts are fully explained, most customers are understanding and I don't believe that I lose much business on account of prices. I always have a waiting list of at least 2-3 weeks (usually longer).

There seems to be some sort of consensus so far regarding the price for the example frame that I specified previously - but the real point is how much are we charging per hour, and how much are we paying ourselvers per hour?

Come on fellow framers! Let's get this topic sorted, otherwise there is little point in discussing other issues.
John Williams
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Pricing

Post by Guest »

£53 - The business of straightforward pricing is easy - and the reality of any business is the bottom line - so if your working from a shed somewhere you might be looking at a bigger profit margin but charging less.

Where i have a problem is when it comes to charging for something that has a element of time involved that cant be easily assesed - perhaps one of the best examples is reglazing a frame - customer perception - one bit of glass - should only cost a few pounds - framers perception - mucky old frame - lots of gooey tape to remove - piece of glass - work probably wont go in first time because of mucky old frame - could probably take longer than starting from scratch - and i bet that nobody charges a realistic rate for the job.
Ardfinnan

Pricing

Post by Ardfinnan »

Come on guys. Let's face it, we charge what we think the market can bear. I've just waited three weeks for a paper conservator to take off the stickiest masking tape you have ever come across from a treasured print. I have now reassembled this in it's orignial frame, after cleaning that too, with rag mat and fresh glass. I am finding it hard to decide how much to charge the client as it wasn't obvious, until I began the work, how difficult this was going to be. In the end, I will not charge for all the time it has taken, which is probably daft, but I know that there is more work to come from that source. To a certain extent, we are all fexible. I have the advantage of being one of those that works out of the back garden shed, so don't have the same over heads. However, I still work to a high standard and expect recognition for that.
markw

pricing

Post by markw »

Ardfinnan - you prove the point well - it matters not if you work in a shed or a gallery - the time taken has a price - the point about this being a good source of work could also back fire on you if you have under charged - the next batch could be just as grotty - but the customer will be expecting a similar price to the sticky old frame you have so professionaly just finished - better to be straight forward in your costing regime and have a charge element whenever you see a sticky mess on the back of the frame. - i doubt the restorer undercharged. my approach to this is to say to the custumer that to clean the messy old frame up will take x amount of time and that i charge x amount per hour - I would add that i work in a town thats dominated by antique shops and i could spend every day cleaning old frames - my strict approach to costing these out carefully has seen a decline in grotty old frames - but i still clean a lot of old antique frames that are worth the effort and expense.
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How Much?!

Post by Underpinner »

When I started this topic I was not really looking for a philosophical discussion about frame pricing and practical everyday problems. Instead, I was hoping that framers would welcome the chance to discuss actual figures. Perhaps I failed to make myself clear but I have to say that the response so far has largely missed the intended point. Shall we continue to skirt around the subject, avoiding the issue but instead raising all sorts of other issues? Shall we continue to be coy and "British" about discussing the actual arithmetic, the actual money, thus prolonging this conversation without really saying anything useful? Or will someone grasp the nettle? Or does this forum regard money as a taboo subject? :?
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Post by John »

The discussion so far, while not always a direct answer to your question John, has certainly given me some food for thought, and I thank you for focussing our attention in this vital direction.

It would be nice to see a little more numeric content in this thread though:)
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Post by Framerguy »

I would love to get involved in this discussion but feel that the difference in the Pound and the Dollar along with the standard vs. metric would make anything I relate somewhat vague and inaccurate.

I use a POS framing program for my frame shop and have my fixed charges and markups adjusted per wholesale cost. That is, the cheaper the wholesale cost, the greater the markup multiplier. I charge a fixed rate per united inch measurement for cutting mat/mount boards and glass and charge an additional fee for multiple openings in each matboard.

All of my materials are costed out at a predetermined rate of markup according to the wholesale cost and either the formula that the material is based on or the UI ratio I referred to earlier.

I will watch this thread and hope that I can make some additional comments later.

Regarding the lack of responses to this subject, I really don't think that it has anything at all to do with the subject matter. You have a small membership at this early stage in your forum and you will find that, as you grow in numbers, so will your replies to topics. Give it some time and don't expect every one of youir members to be active in your discussions. Many just register to read only and are either shy or feel that they aren't experienced enough to contribute to the discussions. They will become more comfortable with the procedure particularly if some of you welcome them aboard and make them feel at home here.

I speak from experience of being a veteran contributor to the Yank Grumble and we have over 2000 registered members on that forum. There are a large number of these members who have never posted a question or given a reply to anything.

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Post by John »

Many thanks Framerguy for your informative posts and encouraging words.

Browsing through the grumble http://thegrumble.com on the subject of pricing, it is fascinating to note the huge variation in charges for the same work.

An interesting difference between framers on each side of the Pond is the attitude to Chop Service. In the UK it is little used, and personally I use it only for aluminium frames.

I was wondering how chop affected pricing strategy. Would a framer who also cut his own frames charge the same as when using chop?
markw

pricing chop

Post by markw »

John
pricing chop is an interesting point - I use chop for 80% of orders, I price all work on a chop basis. I dont expect my costs to be significantly different from "length based" orders.

Chop is significantly more expensive. but as with all purchases, if you buy enough you negotiate a discount. You also have to take into account wastage on length cuts - I dont have to cut around defects, warps or damage. I dont throw away the useless short length left over, all costed into my conventional cut length pricing. If i look at individual jobs the cost of mouldings is a little more expensive - if i look at the amount of money i spend on mouldings over a six month period i find that it balances out, do you cost the wasted bits - i used to have bins full of them.

The real gain in using chop is the saving in stock - i have very little apart from a very small core of basic mouldings. I have access to hundreds of mouldings always (?) kept in stock by my suppliers. I order before 12pm and have those cut lengths in my workshop the next day, my main supplier phones me if the moulding is out of stock and tells me when it will be in stock - at that point i can often substitute a similar moulding or inform my customer that the order will be late.

Back to the point - I use the same pricing codes regardless of chop or length - I know that my prices are in the correct position with my competitors - I also know that many of my customers use me because i have a wide range of mouldings to choose from.
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Pricing

Post by Underpinner »

Having started this topic by complaining that the trade press coverage of pricing and related issues has been inadequate over the years, I must now give credit where it is due: The Fine Art Trade Guild magazine, "Art Business Today" has just included an article on the earnings of art and framing employees - and at last we are being shown some very telling facts and figures and they certainly won't do much to encourage recruitment.
I wonder whether the figures will look any better when the earnings of self-employed framers are covered in the next issue of ABT.
John Williams
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