How much?!

[JonC]

New to this forum
Am amazed at the prices being charged
Having recently taken over a Framing Business Our prices being charged for the sample frame 16"x20" would be approx £35:00
Since doing a profit and LOSS on the business I can see how you guys are charging between £59:00 and the lower £40's for the same item
The only problem is if I put my charges per frame up to your level I would lose most of the business.
BUT to survive in the com work they are going to have to go up.
Very interesting will watch with anticipation.
John

[John]

Hi John

Welcome to the forum.

Since John W started this thread we have had a rigorous review of our own pricing strategy. This has resulted in a price increase of around 25%.

So far no one has raised an eyebrow at any of the new prices. That is apart form ourselves. Sometimes I have had to suppress a sharp intake of breath after calculating a price.

I have to remind myself that these are the rates I must charge in order to make a living, and that even with using these higher charges, I will never be rich.

[Underpinner]

I have always been amazed by the wide variation in prices charged by different framers and have imagined a variety of reasons such as:
1/ Some using pricing methods that are simply wrong.
2/ Some "surveys" have been not sufficiently specific about the frame specifications, leading to various estimates.
3/ Some businesses unclear about where their profit is coming from - so framing being subsidised by another part of the business. Such proprietors may feel no real need to tackle frame pricing revision because they are unaware that they are undercharging for their frames.

Framing is the major part of my business, so I have to get it right. Even so, and despite annual price reviews, I am very familiar with John's recent experience of surprise at the outcome of estimates - and, thankfully, the absence of any evidence of a short intake of breath on the part of most customers. Glad to hear that at least one fellow member of this forum has gained some real benefit from this thread - now will the rest of you be honest and own up... ...and I will let you know where to send the commission!
I recommend a small book from the FATG entitled "101 things for your art business now..." by Stephen Fry and Lena Samuels. There are some real gems in this book regarding all aspects of the framing and gallery business and especially pricing, discounting, increasing prices etc. For example, have you ever worked out on paper what would be the consequences of a 10% price increase for your framing? After all, we all worry about any increase in prices, even when increases are absolutely necessary. Indeed, which of us has the nerve to increase prices unnecessarily? So do the sums. Put 10% on the price. Reduce the numbers sold by (say) 10%, to represent those customers that you will lose by increasing prices. Let us all know your conclusions.

[sisslings]

dear underpinner,

i have just joined up to the picture framers forum.looking back on some of the topics discussed i came across your question with regard to framing a 20 x 16 watercolour with conservation board/corri cor/€2.50 per metre moulding.
as a picture frame wholesaler i have been trying for many years to get picture framers to increase their prices as yet to little avail.

in relation to your question i would charge for the above job €103.80 (euros) approx 70.00 sterling.

breakdown as follows mountboard €4.40 per foot 6 feet used =€26.40
undermat €4.40 per foot 6 feet used =€26.40
moulding €8.50 per foot 6 feet used=€51.00

i believe this should be the minimum priced charged.however some framers have expressed to me that this price was too excessive for their particular town.this being the case i have suggest a maximum discount of 10% off the above price.

i hope my reply although late will be of some help.

regards
david woods

[John]

Hi David,

Welcome to the forum.

It is great to see this useful and practical advice from a supplier. It seems that many of your competitors do not recognize that it is in their interest to help their customers to operate profitably.

[markw]

David
It would be good to see your basic reasoning behind the markup factors in your calculations - preferably in sterling (I am not anti euro - just bit slow at calculating currency conversion). In principle I agree with you - but the reality of life is always down to customer perception - and at present that can be - "I can get a frame from Ikea for £10" -" the competition down the road are much cheaper than you" - even if they are not comparing like with like it still affects their perception of value. My attitude is to get as much money from a transaction as i can - I suppose the worst thing a customer can say to me is " thats cheap". It does encourage you to build up as loyal following as possible of customers who appreciate the quality of work that you produce.

[Cornish Framer]

We currently charge £20 + vat per hour for jobs that are not standard e.g. cleaning glass reassembling etc. + materials ( at 3 x mark up + VAT) We tell the customer approx how long it will take to give them a guide to final price and promise to phone if we take the frame apart and find it has a problem which may mean it takes longer or more materials. They generally like the honesty factor. As long as you don't do work they didn't ask for without telling them or look like you are ripping them off they are happy to pay the price. Another point, if you think about it the suppliers (arqadia, Lion,) put their prices up normally once a year, often by 5%, All framers should do the same. Regular small price increases are less likely to be noticed by customers than whacking your price up by 25% in one go.
Incidently we charge slightly less to our regular local customers if they are happy to wait a few weeks, (we are in a tourist hot spot) than we do to visitors who generally need a fast turnaround ( it's Thursday and we are going home on Saturday morning!) afterall if you want your holiday snaps developed in 24hours you have to pay a premium.!

[John]

Hi Cornish Framer,

Welcome to the forum.

I spoke recently to a gallery owner who also operates in a tourist area. Whereas he does a great trade in the summer and virtually nothing at Christmas, we (city centre) are the opposite, going through a dry patch in the summer and looking to the Christmas trade to give us a boost.

Every Christmas I decide that we should charge a premium for those rush jobs which just have to be completed before the holiday, but I never do.

I was wondering, should we all, as a matter of course, charge a bit extra for fast service during a buisy season?

[John Ranes II, CPF, GCF]

...Am amazed at the prices being charged.........The only problem is if I put my charges per frame up to your level I would lose most of the business........

As compared to another response....

..........Since John W started this thread we have had a rigorous review of our own pricing strategy. This has resulted in a price increase of around 25%.

So far no one has raised an eyebrow at any of the new prices......

It is interesting not only how prices vary, but how attitudes vary as well. Granted, geographically influences exist, that do have an impact on our retail pricing structure, but attitude amongst ourselves is of larger impact.

As a frequent visitor, previous resident in the UK, I am always amazed at the cost of living in Britain. In June, I was amazed that a bottle of American Budwieser sells for £3.50. (Don't worry, I dont touch the stuff....Real Ale Man, please!) Meanwhile a pint of Newcastle sells for $3.00 in our local watering hole, here in Wisconsin.....Go figure.

To the question at hand....for comparison sakes: Our POS system prices out the 16x20 inch framing job at $141.14 = £76.72 = €115.23.

Of related interest is that length moulding selected for this price comparison wholesales at £2.50/meter. This would correspond to $1.40/foot which is pretty "inexpensive" moulding. A simple 1inch oak cap would cost us more like $2.30/foot = £4.10/meter

Obviously cost of goods and gross profit percentages need to be compared when examining markups. At the end of the day, what is your COG percentage?

Regards,

John

[cmaclean]

An interesting topic and some good threads.

I wonder how members of the forum have set up their estlite programme defaults.
For me I have set up the programme to work out a sell price which is 3 x the material costs. I then add into the "other" section a pc sum for the material cost of the hangers/hooks and wall buddies etc and other pieces and bits (corner protectors) which go into the finishing of the frame.

I'd be interested to know what others think. Is 3 x the cost of materials enough do you think?

Three Cheers


Campbell

[John]

The markup you apply will depend, to a large extent, on your overheads. We are now using 4.0 on our mouldings, falling to 3.5 on the more expensive profiles.

Regarding your EstLite question, why not include the price of fixings etc in the (slightly misnamed) Minimum Frame Price which represents the fixed costs associated with the frame.

[JonC]

Hi. Have read this latest forum on pricing with interest.. I read last years and it seems there are a lot more people contributing to the subject.
£50 odd pounds for a 16"x20" would be very very nice to say the least. I would charge about £38:00 including VAT.and possibly struggle to convince the customer at that.
Is this why I cannot afford to pay myself I ask.??

I use Estlite costing and have done so for about 10 months.. I still cant work out the variables on width of frame relating to base cost. Having entered in a number of different variables none seem to make a lot of difference at all. But I am perservering. Perhaps a trip to Scenes in person will be the only answer.

Will watch this space
J ohn F (yes another one)

[John]

Hi John,

Welcome back.

By all means drop in the next time you are in Belfast and we will try to set you on the right path with the program. We are always happy to see other framers, there might even be a cup of tea in it - if you time it right.

If it is more convenient, give us a ring (028 9024 7878)

[m.a.p@virgin.net]

Well, this is disapointing, I had thought and hoped that more people would have taken part in this thread.
Do Picture Framers know this site exists !!!

No they dont/did'nt I only found out today

Martin

[kev@frames]

ok- heres another one. I imagine being deepest Cornwall, I'd be similar to any other rural market town framer with retail premises, although it still came as quite a surprise, seeing as we have had two 20% price rises in twelve months how close everyone's "going rate" for that job is.

ranges from £38 for different mouldings at the same buy-in price, to £54.50 - with slater harrison or arquadia conservation/white core. thats off a price list "matrix", as I've just got the software and not configured everything yet. About £1 less if they insist on the cheapest mountboard. ...although thats another post altogether.

Just checking in estlite and it comes to 55.10 which I think is about right. I wouldn't complain about that whichever side of the counter i was on providing the job was done well.

as a comment- imho Theres always a misguided muppet down the road who will do it for half that price.

workshop hourly rates -I recently reviewed these after several years at £40 per hour, its more like £60 per hour in 2006, and rising, with wages, rent, rates heating and all the usual overheads taken into account.

My hourly take-home pay - seems like about 15p an hour.

[JonC]

Hi again all
Glad to see more people are contributing to this interesting altercation.
Looking back to the start of this string £2.50 plus vat seems to equate to what I have to pay now for the Y range of mouldings. In fact my code insert into Estlite goes in at 257.
With the current mark up still at my original set up and with a minimum frame price of £6 being added automatically my price would now come out at about £41.00. for the 16"x20" frame finished with a single mount and plain glass. This I would have to reduce a bit or I would not get the job.
in 2 years my moulding seem to have gone up by about 17p per foot

Am I missing something somewhere here . Because at £54 to £55 for this frame seemms like pie in the sky to me . As does £40 per hour lab charge. We charge £20 per hour and feel very lucky to get it. Ah just realised Im the MUPPET whos customers keep their hands tight on their purse strings unless I work for nothing.
I have another solution --Move to Cornwall"
Where the street seem to be paved in gold.

John Shaftesbury

[markw]

Interesting going back to this old posting - a lot of my fixed costs have risen over this time but I have not kept pace with the rise by increasing my prices - I have implimented price rises when material costs have risen but not by enough to cover increases in rent and rates. I have put in a CMC and this has increased productivity - and the work has been coming in to keep us busy.

Having just had the annual chat with my accountant about the way the business is going I t was good to see we progressivly increase sales year upon year - with the exception of the previous finacial year - Local council decided to triple car parking charges - business just disapeared - a time that tests that confidence you may have in your pricing structure. Much protesting and the constant filling of car parking ticket machines with expanded foam filler seems to have persuaded the council to reduce charges ( its amazing how honest - mild mannered model citizens can turn to criminal activity when their livelyhoods are threatened).

I still think that pricing is dependent on perceived value - and perceived value is falling with the cost of consumer goods coming down. The other factor is confidence - You have to be confident when your quoting a high figure - when the customer asks why you have to be able to convince them that they are getting their moneys worth. - its worth noting that perceiption sometimes says to customers that high price equals high quality - its our job to convince them thats what theyre getting.

[kev@frames]

Hi again all

Am I missing something somewhere here . Because at £54 to £55 for this frame seemms like pie in the sky to me . As does £40 per hour lab charge. We charge £20 per hour and feel very lucky to get it. Ah just realised Im the MUPPET whos customers keep their hands tight on their purse strings unless I work for nothing.
I have another solution --Move to Cornwall"
Where the street seem to be paved in gold.

John Shaftesbury

our cheapest price would be about that. and the customerr would still get a pretty good choice. paying the £40 or £50 is optional, we wouldn't twist their arm!
streets of cornwall lined not with gold, but chewing gum, actually, I think. ......
and where the property prices and business overheads are second only to london, and the wages and disposable incomes are about the lowest in the UK
"Doc Martin" and "The Wild west" (and straw dogs, come to think of it) are more documentary than fiction

Direct costs of running a workshop: £60 an hour isn't an unreasonable running cost is it? not for a high street retail shop with workshops, with all the regulations complied with.

might vary a bit around the country but for every hour the shop is open £1 an hour vanishes into business rates, up to £30 an hour vanishes into staff wages when everyone is in the workshop, then heating, then lighting... water rates....and thats without the costs of the property itself, without maintenance and ongoing replacement equipment, then there is fatg membership, national insurance, public liability insurance, blade sharpening, consumables, cleaning and cleaning materials etc. Then over £1000 a year emptying waste bins and cullet produced in the workshops, then the compulsory stuff required by law compressed air vessel (compressor tanks) testing, electrical PAT tests, software licenses, health and safety books, fire extinguisher testing or replacement, fire alarms, HSE notices and costs of complying with regulations -all these are direct workshop cost.

Now of course it goes without saying that we all pay our rates, we all pay our bills, and we all get all the necessary inspections on our equipment that the law requires, dont we. And we all have to renew and upgrade equipment from time to time, and its the workshop that pays for this.

I started like many people in this job do, ruining the dining room table making frames for myself with a second hand keencut laser, bought with a borrowed £200 and a mitre saw from the DIY shop. And for the first two years I claimed benefits (earnings legally declared) to make ends meet, my kids went to school with holes in their shoes etc and Im not going back to those "happy days" if I can help it.

The reason I have to charge for labour at the rates I do is because I want am not going back to the dining room table and a mitre saw -at least until I retire from full time work, and then I'm taking a morso to the shed A frame back then (FATG budget)would take me an hour, same budget frame now takes three minutes at the most in our workshops and costs half as much to make. And this efficiency by my staff and equipment is reflected in the price the customer will pay, which is very good value for money.

what we should have added, is how long it takes to make that frame.

If they want a proper bespoke frame they will still get good value for money, and get what they pay for, and nothing less, no corners cut (forgive the pun). They know they will, and thats why they are happy to pay.

We still do the cheap end of the market, its our bread and butter. But we dont chase it. It took me ten years to realise that people dont come to you just because you are the cheapest, a lot of the time they come to you and happily pay extra because they too work for themselves and understand that there's a "going rate" below which corners may well get cut, and below whicjh you wont be there for them to come back to next year.

Paved with gold! rotflmao! last holiday = 8 years ago, in Devon. I run a 12 year old motorcycle and a 10 year old car -and that is shared with my wife. I wouldn't make a living if the prices I charged didn't reflect my workshop overheads.

Like Markw we cut costs -CMC, reducing waste, etc. But we wouldn't have a CMC (for example) if we were not charging the right rate for what we do, we couldn't afford one otherwise.

with three people in the workshops we offer one-hour framing if required. 3 people can produce five times the output of one man, specially when each is on a fixed part of the job - usually one on mounts and glass, one on frame rim, one on backing and finishing. We also have to try and pay people the right rate for what they do. I probably get a lower hourly rate than my lowest paid staff, and I dont include my own "pay" in the costs of running the workshop.

and what about the years spent learning the trade -what price can you put on that?

I admit it is easier with a high street shop where the customers can see your workshops and equipment, to justify the charges. they can see what you are doing, they can see where the money goes, and they can see what you have (or have not) invested in to do their job. Its also easier with a high street shop to "add value" to the overall shopping experience (as they say) by making them feel valued when they come in the shop, and they gladly pay for the attention and service and advice.

note- what british framers earn is miniscule in comparison to American framers. A lad came to work for me, straight out of school. four years later he's on Nantucket Island -picture framing. the answer isn't move to cornwall, the answer is move to America, or any place where the grass seems greener

[leabrooks]

Using Estlite software I have just calculated the price of the trail piece, it came out at £37.60, think it may be time to look at the pricing structure.

[Merlin]

Well this Forum has done it again. Forced me into a review of my moulding prices.

I have one particular moulding supplier, who has been really good, always on time, no out of stock items and with what I thought was no apparent price increases.

Then of course - and as usual - you order the moulding, a while later the invoice arrives, you just notice the amount and pay it.

This time I decided to check because I thought the amount was a fair bit more than the usual amount for the same stock.

This particular moulding which has a fairly high turn round, has gone up from £2.44 to £2.68 per metre. 9% if my maths are correct. Might not seem a lot, but when ordering some 150 metres that equates to a £36 increase at trade prices. Now you just add on your own 'mark up'.

The price went up last June and I had not noticed, so I had stuck with the Jan 2005 price list. OK my own mark up covered me, yet if I had been a bit more diligent, there would have been a lot more profit sitting in the bank right now, as between June 2005 and this order I had moved around 260 metres of the stuff. That is just one stock item and I carry and display around 30 different mouldings from this one company of which roughly half have been increased.

Pays to check and check again..