Pricing

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Ray
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Pricing

Post by Ray »

I'm new to the site and just starting out framing on a small scale in my garage mainly for the photographs I take. I would like to recoup some of my costs for equipment and generate some income from the work. I have recently ordered from Lion and was quite surprised at the costs of materials before getting anywhere near adding a print (probably my naivety from buying cheap frames).

I would like to know if people mark up their work by a certain percentage on top of materials. I appreciate that this will differ and also depend on experience and how well regarded framers are but would be grateful for any advice.

Thanks in advance.
Ray
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prospero
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Re: Pricing

Post by prospero »

Hi and Welcome Ray. :D

Pricing is tricky. Everyone has there own individual overheads and expectations. What you have to remember is, you aren't buying stuff to sell on in the same form. the materials you buy are being used to make your 'product'. So you can't really calculate your profits solely based on marking up the materials.

A few things to consider.....

First thing to do is calculate your fixed running costs. That is, basically, what it costs you per hour to work. Add the amount you spend over a year in rent/rates/phone/power/insurance/advertising/staff wages - omit nothing. Coffee/tea/biscuits/the window cleaner - it all mounts up. Then decide how many hours you would like to work in a year. Not how many you do work, how many you would like to work. Divide the annual costs by the annual hours. You will probably get a shock at the figure. You need to add and hourly rate on top of this. What this figure is depends on you. But remember that you are doing a skilled job. Don't sell yourself short. Also consider that although you may be working an eight hour day, not all that time is billable. There is a certain amount of dead time that you have to factor in. Sweeping up, doing the paperwork, dealing with customers - that sort of thing. In an eight hour day you may only be actually 'earning' for six. And that figure is maybe a bit optimistic......

Unlike a lot of industries, framing jobs are individual. Two frames may appear similar to the untrained eye when finished. One job might have used the same amount of materials but took five times longer to make than the other. Remember you are in the business of framing pictures, not selling frames. I think this is an important distinction and one that the general public tends not to appreciate. People will ask you all the time, "how much would a frame such and such a size cost?". They wouldn't ring a garage and ask "How much to fix my car? It's 16ft long...."

Don't dismiss minor procedures as not worth bothering with. You can string a frame in maybe a minute. Try doing 100. It will take longer than 100 mins. Also don't ignore the cost of sundries. A D-ring may cost only a few pence. Few strips of tape? Bit of wire? Have a check now and then and see exactly how much you spend on D-rings/wire/screws/tapes/points/glue/knife blades/etc in a year.

Having said that, if someone comes in and wants a bit of picture cord or a hook or something, I usually give them it free. The PR value far exceeds the cost of checking the price in the catalogue and taking their money and giving them change.

A lot of jobs involve re-framing a picture that is already in a frame. It might take you half an hour to persuade the picture out of the frame before you even start. Then you have the old frame to dispose of...... It all costs you money. Some people will even expect you to give them a part-exchange on the old frame. :P

Next time you have your car serviced, look what the garage charges per hour for labour. 'nuff said. :wink:

When costing materials for jobs you have to allow a generous margin for wastage. If you buy 100ft of moulding, maybe only 70 of that will actually end up in frames. The figure will vary depending on the size of the frames. If you have one moulding that you only use on big frames you are likely to end up with lots of short bits that you have no regular use for. You may find a way of using these later, but in the meantime you have to account for cost. Some moulding is prone to twisting and various defects. Eventually you will weed out any problem mouldings, but if you have to use them, you have to establish the true cost.


Here endeth tonights lesson. :mrgreen:
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Graysalchemy

Re: Pricing

Post by Graysalchemy »

All the above are 100% correct and i would go along with that. I know from my year end accounts what Gross Profit I want to achieve and I use that as a multiplier on Material costs, However that is no good if you are starting out. One thing you do need to be aware of is that pricing is a fine balance between what you want to achieve out of a job (ie all that Prospero has mentioned) and what someone is prepared to pay for something. An experienced framer with a good reputation, in an affluent area may be able to achieve greater gross profits (and ultimately net profit) because of percieved value, people may expect to pay more for a framer with a good reputation.

At the end of the day it is about what the client will pay and what you are prepared to sell for. Just remeber it is better to sell 10 frames at £50.00 pounds than only 5 frames at £60.00.

One other quick point, factor in the VAT even if you are not vat registered, then if you go full time and meet the VAT threashold you prices don't have to go up by 20%.

All the best

AG
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prospero
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Re: Pricing

Post by prospero »

That's a good point from AG. Price perception varies from person to person. Someone who has work framed regularly will know what to expect. Others get the price from looking at a framed 20x30 print in a discount store for £40 and assume they can get a custom job for the same price (less the cost of the print).

I had a painting in for framing once. I hung it on the wall in the shop to see how it looked. A lady came in and asked the price. Well it wasn't mine to sell, but I knew it was for sale by the artist. "£8000" I said. Well the lady didn't want to spend that much but she asked me why it was that price. What made it better than others in the shop a lot cheaper. I just said "Why did you come in and walk past the others and go right to it?" :)
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Ray
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Re: Pricing

Post by Ray »

Thanks for the detailed replies. Much appreciated. Judging by your knowledge you are both experienced framers and you've spared me a good part of your 8 hours. I must owe you a substantial amount of money. :shock: Thank you.
Graysalchemy

Re: Pricing

Post by Graysalchemy »

That's what makes pricing so difficult. Perception is everything, I always use a material cost mark up and factor in wastage at about 15- 20 %. However everyone's wastage will vary and is something you get to know. The majority of commercial work has very limited wastage as you tend to use a limited range of mouldings and make a lot of frames out of the same moulding so wastage in those cases goes down to less than 5%, however glass can be alot higher as with Mount board and backing, especially is you are doing any square frames over 24" x 24".

I don't charge labour :o :o as I have no staff but I know how much work I need to achieve in a day to make the profit I want. When I look at a new venture or framing market I take a good hard look at how profitable it would be compared to some of my more profitable work and see whether it is worth pursuing, a lot of the time it's not.

Do you sell many paintings at £8000 Prospero?

Cheers

AG
Graysalchemy

Re: Pricing

Post by Graysalchemy »

Ray wrote:Thanks for the detailed replies. Much appreciated. Judging by your knowledge you are both experienced framers and you've spared me a good part of your 8 hours. I must owe you a substantial amount of money. :shock: Thank you.
8 hrs more like 10 :giggle: :giggle:
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prospero
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Re: Pricing

Post by prospero »

I do a 14 day week. :shock:

No, I don't sell many paintings at £8000. But I know a few people who do. And I have to frame the buggers. :|
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Graysalchemy

Re: Pricing

Post by Graysalchemy »

Me to I enjoy framing for the exhibitions you get to use decent mouldings for a change.
Ray
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Re: Pricing

Post by Ray »

I think if I as charging for time my frames would be so expensive I'd only need to sell one or two month. One thing is clear and that is to know exactly what everything is costing and factor in for wastage. I think ensuring that what you sell is professional has to be he first thing to concentrate on.
Nigel Nobody

Re: Pricing

Post by Nigel Nobody »

I think the first and main thing to concentrate on is market research.
That's one of the areas that is sadly missing in new startup framing businesses. People make a decision that they are going to be a framer, and they never bother to find out whether it will work in their area or not!

Whether you can make a professional frame won't matter if there is no profitable business in your area.

All business costs, wastage and plus whatever income the business wants to make, should be taken into account to arrive at a pricing system.

If potential customers are not prepared to pay the prices calculated in that way, then the business will not make enough to survive!
stcstc

Re: Pricing

Post by stcstc »

Actually its not just startups, i come across more and more framing businesses with little or no real business knowledge

there are so many framers around who get good at the framing and then setup on their own, without any real knowledge of how to run a business

Its the same with photographers, there are loads of great photographer, who really cant earn a living, as they dont know how to run the business side of things
Graysalchemy

Re: Pricing

Post by Graysalchemy »

Good points both of you. I think if you want to run your own framing business you need to be a businessman who happens to be a framer. If you are not then the tide is against you. Having said that it does't mean that you don't need to be a good framer, you do but you need all the business skills to convert your framing ability into profit.

AG
Ray
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Re: Pricing

Post by Ray »

I return to this post after some time of doing frames for my own photographs and my first paid job to frame an artists drawings and again wondering where to pitch the price. I am an amateur framer with the aim of offering a professional job (once I am confident this is the case). I work from my garage so have very negligible overheads and I tend to use Wessex as they are local to me and I can get what I want in my car.

The costs for the job are as follows for 2 frames with glass size 600mm x 500mm; both frames used just one length of moulding which was bought from Wessex in single pieces and charged by the length. This could potentially be an avenue for me with students the artist teaches at an evening class.

Moulding Gunmetal silver edge £6.75/ length
Glass (half sheet) £2.50
Mountboard (half sheet) £2.50
Box board (half sheet) £0.60
Art-Bak board (half sheet) £1.10
Fixings £0.50
Total plus VAT = ££16.74

Antique silver raised line £12.50/ length
Glass (half sheet) £2.50
Mountboard (half sheet) £2.50
Box board (half sheet) £0.60
Art-Bak board (half sheet) £1.10
Fixings £0.50
Total plus VAT = £23.76

I have seen postings in the past regarding working out overheads, what you hope to earn over the year but I don't feel they apply to me. I was trying to work out a simple idea for pricing that factored in my time and wastage. Consider the total costs above and appy the ideas below.

1. A simple option was to double my material costs. Materials cost based on half or full lenth of moulding or half/full sheet of glass/board (if a frame can be made from half a length of moulding I figure I can make another using the remainder). The larger the frame, the longer it will take me to make. Also the higher cost moulding is going to mean a higher cost of frame.

2. Another was simply to add a set amount on to each frame i.e. small, medium, large frame = +£10, £15, £20 (just an example - this is where I need help)

This job is acually for a friend so I am not too worried but I need to set a pricing structure so as not to undervalue my work (not doing this for nothing) and also have people pleased and recommending my work for an honest fee.

I would appreciate any ideas. Some of you out there may think the ideas are plucked out of thin air (you're probably right) but it's a difficult one for me. Quite happy to post pictures of the work later.
Thanks, Ray
http://www.raygreenphotography.co.uk
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Jonny2morsos
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Re: Pricing

Post by Jonny2morsos »

These pricing questions keep coming up and you will find plenty in the forum archives about this.

Just because you have little or no overheads please don't be tempted to do jobs at ridiculously low prices. For one thing, when you get busier and overheads go up it is very difficult to put your prices up with your established customers. If you have little or no return then how does your business go forward?

Just to give you a guideline think 4-5 times your material costs if you can find no other way of working out your overheads.

Don't forget that although you can drop in to Wessex and pick up your mouldings you need to account for time, petrol etc.
Roboframer

Re: Pricing

Post by Roboframer »

If I were you I'd (and what I did years ago was) get a feel for what the local market can stand by doing a bit of mystery shopping and then price yourself close once you can produce what it expects for it.
Grahame Case

Re: Pricing

Post by Grahame Case »

I'd certainly recommend not pricing yourself stupidly low - lots of framers make this mistake & lots of framers end up out of business.

Actually it's the same in all trades - I'm also a wedding DJ - and I charge about £300 for 4 hours - if it's just down the road from me. There are operators who charge as low as £60 for 4 hours - these operators tend not to last long as they aren't covering their overheads such as PLI - PAt testing and music and equipment purchase costs.

Basically I'd recommend you look to your competitors - or people who you aspire to be like - or better than and get an idea for their pricing first.
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Re: Pricing

Post by YPF »

I started much the same way many years ago and naively just doubled my own costs Even when doing just that I still produced a simple spreadsheet that calculated the quantity of materials used, their costs and my mark-up leaving a final total. This very simple tool lasted me many years with my mark-up gradually increasing.

After I decided to become full-time I invested in a pricing program and did some secret shopping to find out what the market level was and adjusted the program to suit. I am now quite happy to quote whatever figure my pricing software displays.

It is very difficult to tell you what we think you should be charging as we all have different criteria for pricing. Follow the advice; secret shop and set your prices accordingly but make sure your pricing is consistent.

Steve
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Ray
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Re: Pricing

Post by Ray »

Thanks. I think I need to pop in to my local framing shop with a picture and find out 'how much' it will cost me. I agree that going backwards and forwards to Wessex is not a great use of time (and money). Hopefully I will start to use a few standard mouldings and stick to them for the majority of what I do.

It certainly does sound a lot to increase costs by 4-5 times (2nd example would be £100 and more). Maybe that's just what it costs.

I expect what you are framing also determines costs. A painting worth £2000 isn't going to be put in a £40 frame and the owner will expect the frame to live up to the painting. From the opposite a customer doesn't want to pay a fortune for a poster (...and send him to IKEA). I take the point about market research.
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Re: Pricing

Post by Jonny2morsos »

If you have Microsoft Excel or a similar spreadsheet application it is not difficult to write your own pricing programme using the mathematical function feature. Once set up you just need to enter the dimensions.

Remember you will only be able to offer a collect and deliver service if working from domestic premises or you will be in trouble with your local planning officer. Insurance is another consideration if you do choose to let joe public come to your house for the purposes of carrying out a business transaction. £2 million is the minimum public liability cover.
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