Price Check Please

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Ricky
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Ricky »

I can see lots of variation on these prices & i suppose its down to your overheads,
my computor gives me Retail £24.50, actual cost of materials £7.00 I'm Ok with that.
Nigel Nobody

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Nigel Nobody »

Graysalchemy wrote: Pricing is a very contentious issue with a lot of framers wanting to keep prices high.
I'm not sure if a lot of framers want to keep prices high! Most of us want to make a living and should work out their pricing based on their own expenses, etc, etc. If that works out to be higher than someone else, then so be it, but let's stay away from sweeping statements like that, please.

Another reason that some framers have to charge more is that they spend more time ensuring that the quality of their workmanship is higher than some others. More time = more labour cost!

There is a place in our economies for both commercial and high quality framers, but please, don't even think about comparing prices between them.

If a commercial framer charges $20 for a job that takes them 10, 12, 15 minutes, and a custom framer takes an hour to do the same frame, but with higher cost materials and is very concerned about the details of every aspect of the job and charges $40, there should be no comparison between prices as the finished jobs are very different. (There is a difference between the cost of a BMW and a Hyundai for a good reason!)

It often worries me that when someone who is learning, asks for a price check, we get a wide range of prices that may be totally misleading to that person because they may not understand the difference between certain types of framers.

Apples don't = oranges!
stcstc

Re: Price Check Please

Post by stcstc »

Nigel Nobody wrote:Another reason that some framers have to charge more is that they spend more time ensuring that the quality of their workmanship is higher than some others. More time = more labour cost!

There is a place in our economies for both commercial and high quality framers, but please, don't even think about comparing prices between them.

If a commercial framer charges $20 for a job that takes them 10, 12, 15 minutes, and a custom framer takes an hour to do the same frame, but with higher cost materials and is very concerned about the details of every aspect of the job and charges $40, there should be no comparison between prices as the finished jobs are very different. (There is a difference between the cost of a BMW and a Hyundai for a good reason!)

sorry ormand, but you suggest not using sweeping statements, then do exactly that

to suggest that a commercial framer DOESNT care about the details, is a very sweeping statement. I AM a commercial framer basically, but do very much so care about details

The way i make my work commercially viable to photographers (my main clients) is am am very very careful about what i offer, work very smartly, and have negotiated very good discounts from my suppliers.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Gesso&Bole »

Some of the logic here is difficult to justify, and I think demonstrates the wide variation of pricing structures. In The case of AG and James, charging £21 + VAT or thereabouts, you are obviously considering the job to be "bunce" on top of what you are doing as a contract framer to earn a living. You are not offering the same service that a bespoke framer would offer, for example - would you spend 30 mins or more on the design, and then order the moulding in specially for the customer for £21 + VAT?

I just did a quick, back of fag packet calculation to illustrate what would happen if your whole week was taken up with orders exactly like this one . . . .

Each customer, who wants a different (but same priced in this example) moulding, different coloured mountboard, and the sizes on each one were a few millimetres different in each case. (in other words, a bespoke service)

So each customer takes an average of 30 mins to choose their frame (inc admin time for the framer, and taking cc payment etc)
Each job will take 5 mins ordering the stock, and 2 mins unpacking the stock when it arrives, and 30 seconds (average) to deal with the admin, accounts and payment of the supplier. Then the actual job will take about 20 minutes to frame, 2 mins to wrap up, and another 2 mins to phone the customer to tell them it is ready. Assuming you are a full-time framer in a retail outlet, working an 8 hour day, 6 days a week, and taking 15 hours a week for 'non-productive' work like putting the bins out, hoovering, changing the window display, updating the website etc. You would have time in the week to do just over 30 of these jobs. If you charged £21 + Vat, and your materials and wastage (as above) came to £7.58 per job. This would give you a Gross Profit of just over £400, out of which to pay your rent and rates, insurance, utilities, advertising, etc etc. You don't need a calculator to work out that it does not make sense, and certainly does not make any money!

This just goes to illustrate that price should be calculated based on the service that you offer, not based on what other people charge.
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Nigel Nobody

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Nigel Nobody »

STSC,
Your response astounds me! I guess it would be just as well to post in Chinese so that 'skimmers' could make up anything they want out of it!

It's just not possible for a mass produced batch of frames, made in a few minutes, each to have the same attention to detail as one that has taken four or five times the amount of time. That doesn't mean that you don't care!

I did not say or even suggest that commercial framers do not care about details! Please try not to read something that isn't there! I thought I was being careful with what I said so as to not offend anyone as that is not my intention, never has been and never will.

There is a difference between commercial framers and those who are not commercial framers. If there wasn't, then what would be the point of calling yourself a commercial framer?
stcstc

Re: Price Check Please

Post by stcstc »

Jim

the way time works for me would be different to what you explain, but its because i control some of the factors

firstly, i stock and offer a very very limited number of mouldings, only stock 10 and only offer another maybe 20 as a matter of course. BUT

I control the choices, so basically the customer has their choice in less than 5 mins. also most work is repeat business or social media orders, where they leave it to me

90% of the time its one of 4 mouldings, 1 or 3 mounts. all in stock

the job would take no more than 10 mins to do

secondly you have included twice non productive time as such, as part of the 15 hrs a week would be admin etc surely
stcstc

Re: Price Check Please

Post by stcstc »

Ormond

I have to disagree with you again

the amount of time to produce the frame is not always and indication of the attention to detail

if you were not saying we dont care fare enough, but it really did read that way to me.

I actually dont see a difference between bespoke framers and commercial framers per say

If we compare like with like frames, and not big fancy art frames. what is the difference

an example of a common frame i would do would be

18*12 inch print, mounted with single mount, in simple black would 20*20 moulding and standard float glass.

where can there be a real difference in a frame like this
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Gesso&Bole »

stcstc

That's exactly my point. You are NOT a bespoke framer, if you offer 10 mouldings. I have over 500. You say the job would only take 10 mins to do. If you stock 500 mouldings it can often take more than 10 mins to find the moulding!!

There is no implied criticism to anyone. My point is about PRICING. You cannot take someone else's price and assume that it will work for your business model. If you look back through this thread you will see that my price for this same example is £46. i get that with no problem. I bet you would have a problem, though, with the number of people we get in the shop wasting our time asking damn fool questions, and customers taking an hour and a half to choose a frame. it is just a different business model, and the prices, and time spent on the various components vary enormously.
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stcstc

Re: Price Check Please

Post by stcstc »

yep deff jim agree completely



i think that others like grays would be in a similar situation to me, in that the customer wouldnt get much choice etc

i generally dont get orders for 1 frame either, my average order at the moment is 5 frames

the interesting point of it all is though that recently i was comparing my gross profit with that of a highstreet bespoke framers and we actually did basically about the same

so the interesting part of that is we are both getting to the same end point just in a different way
Nigel Nobody

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Nigel Nobody »

"Care" was not mentioned in my post that you took offense to! If it's not there, you have no reason to read it into what I said.
stcstc wrote: the amount of time to produce the frame is not always and indication of the attention to detail...

...where can there be a real difference in a frame like this
Those two points are definitely related.

There are many areas where there can be a difference.
There are differences in materials such as in mat's/mounts. My bog standard mat is Alphamat.
My bog standard backing is Artcare foamboard.

Simple black? I have more than 20 simple blacks in different shapes and styles, none of which are the cheap, by the box, mouldings.

It takes a lot of extra time to pay attention to details.

Details such as:
Mats - overcuts, undercuts, hooks, dags in the corners or on the surface of the cut, outside dimension has allowance of 3mm inside rebate, mat is book mounted to backing mat,

Frame - top surface perfectly aligned, back surface perfectly aligned, no gaps, no snags on the outer corner, no sharpness on the outer corner, no glue left inside the corners for the glass to sit on.

Glass - cut to have an allowance of 3 mm inside rebate, edges swiped to remove sharpness, which also reduces danger of breaking.

Fitting - tabs lightly pressing on the backing to allow contents of frame to expand and contract, dust cover or backing tape applied neatly and trimmed evenly, hanging system - eg, dee rings and wire or two points hanging systems take longer than cord stapled on the back and certainly longer than providing no hanging system.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but should be enough to illustrate that there can be a 'real' difference!
stcstc

Re: Price Check Please

Post by stcstc »

i am not talking about the materials.

I am talking talking about differences in work for a job like that

time to do details isnt as simple as you put

Mats - mounts, i use a computer mount cutter, takes me maybe 10 mins to setup overcuts for a board, and then random checks to make sure it hasnt changed. so as i use one board a lot, do the setup once, and random checks once a day.
dimensions aint a big issue as you know, using a gunnar yourself

Frame, yea, making sure everything is spot on, but hey thats just normal for a frame

Glass - cut to size, hey again this is just normal practice, i knock the edges of with a diamond pad aswell

Fitting, yep, semi rigid points, neatly taped and trimmed, no back coversheet though. d-rings and my standard along with wire neatly finished and trimmed

so actually you havent yet told me any real difference apart from dust sheet on the back
Nigel Nobody

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Nigel Nobody »

OK, you win...there are no differences! :head: :head: :head: :head:
Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

Nigel Nobody wrote: Details such as:
Mats - overcuts, undercuts, hooks, dags in the corners or on the surface of the cut, outside dimension has allowance of 3mm inside rebate, mat is book mounted to backing mat,

Frame - top surface perfectly aligned, back surface perfectly aligned, no gaps, no snags on the outer corner, no sharpness on the outer corner, no glue left inside the corners for the glass to sit on.

Glass - cut to have an allowance of 3 mm inside rebate, edges swiped to remove sharpness, which also reduces danger of breaking.

Fitting - tabs lightly pressing on the backing to allow contents of frame to expand and contract, dust cover or backing tape applied neatly and trimmed evenly, hanging system - eg, dee rings and wire or two points hanging systems take longer than cord stapled on the back and certainly longer than providing no hanging system.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but should be enough to illustrate that there can be a 'real' difference!
Ormond that is exactly what I do for a bespoke job and for most commercial jobs. I think Ormond you are assuming that commercial framing means mass produced photo frames, well it doesn't. A lot of my customers are high end high spec with bespoke sizes styles and finishes. With regards to volume framing the majority of my commercial work these days is relatively bespoke ie I have to frame 5 pictures in one size and style 5 in another etc. As a commercial framer you do not have time to take 40 - 50 minutes on a frame, you develop skills to frame fast, you use machinery which allows you to frame fast. So really a lot of my work is very similar to yours just that I am a commercial framer framing pictures for commercial clients it doesn't make me any less of a framer.

Jim, James is right I have a relatively limited choice of frames however I still probably have 90 - 100 different mouldings in stock many left overs from commercial jobs or used in current contracts. I will obviously offer any moulding out of current suppliers catalogues to any commercial client and quite often to bespoke clients. As I said originally the price I gave was based on a moulding I stocked, However it was assumed when I originally read this post that that was also the case for the poster so therefore my quote is comparative.

Once again yet another thread has been taken into the depths of 'them and us' and aired the prejudices which seem to be attached.

As I have said I know that high street framing has a whole different set of overheads and business model which I acknowledge and I respect what you charge and why you charge that, but please don't try and judge my business or business model because quite frankly you couldn't begin to understand it just from reading that I am a commercial framer.


regards

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Re: Price Check Please

Post by GeoSpectrum »

I love this forum. I ask one question and get about five awnsered and a load more information to boot. Great stuff and thanks! :D :D
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Gesso&Bole »

but please don't try and judge my business or business model because quite frankly you couldn't begin to understand it just from reading that I am a commercial framer.

Quote from AG


I certainly wasn't judging your, or anyone else's business model. As for understanding - I used to run a trade framing business in the late 1980's, and as a business consultant have been working with some commercial framers in the last few months.

I was trying to make the point about PRICING, which was the original point of the thread. The point being, that the price you charge has to be calculated to work for the structure of your own business. My CONCERN would be that a new framer, asking questions about how to price a job, might feel that he has to be competitive with your prices, which would probably put him out of business before he began!
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Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

[quote="Gesso&Bole"
I was trying to make the point about PRICING, which was the original point of the thread. The point being, that the price you charge has to be calculated to work for the structure of your own business. My CONCERN would be that a new framer, asking questions about how to price a job, might feel that he has to be competitive with your prices, which would probably put him out of business before he began![/quote]

Sorry Jim I think if you actually read my threads I have said that this is the same formula I used to use when I was on the high street 8 yrs ago and I have always said that pricing has to reflect a business's own needs and overheads. However sometimes someone's expectations of the industry may be higher than reality and it is better someone finds that out before they set their stall out.
Gesso&Bole wrote:You are NOT a bespoke framer, if you offer 10 mouldings. I have over 500. You say the job would only take 10 mins to do. If you stock 500 mouldings it can often take more than 10 mins to find the moulding!!
As I have said I have about 80-90 mouldings in at anyone time not quite the 500 you have but enough to give a good representation to a bespoke client.

You have said you understand commercial framing as you used to run one in the late 80's, however commercial framing has changed dramatically in the last 3-4 yrs. 90% of my work used to be making display cases, blackboards, board mounting cheap prints and framing up local interest prints for pubs. That has all changed and the type of work I am doing is more bespoke and higher spec but for commercial clients. So the quality of work I do is quite high and this reflects work I do for private individuals. I would however have thought that you would understand coming from a commercial back ground how you can save time in a workshop and frame quickly, time is of the essence in any setup.

You are correct though one aspect that a commercial framer doesn't have as much is time wasters and ditherers. However i always find that when selling a framing job I have favourites which I know will work with a particular style of frame and I can then advise people towards these selections. Giving the public to much choice is costly in time, stock and wastage something I am sure you will be aware of. However If your business model relies on letting people have complete freedom of choice then fair play to you it obviously works...but at a cost to both you and your client.

What I am trying to say is that we all have differing circumstances and differing business models, some work for one framer, others don't and some just don't work at all. I think what James and I have done is give an insight into aspects of our business models just as you have done. I would never propose that someone should compete with my price I made it very clear what I thought a good price for a bespoke framer would be £30.00 - £35.00 which is 50 - 75% higher than my price. But I also made the point that I feel that it is better to have a full order book than one empty and there will be a cut of point when price becomes an objection resulting in loss of sale.

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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Jonny2morsos »

Just to put this price thing in perspective. I just bought a pair of Levis Jeans from John Lewis online in an off the shelf size, probably made in a cheap labour area in the far east.

Price £65.00

So a bespoke frame at around the £40.00 mark looks relatively good value I would say.

I didn't pay £65 as they were doing a price match with a competitor last week but stll £50 + for an off the shelf item.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Framerpicture »

Gesso&Bole wrote:
That's exactly my point. You are NOT a bespoke framer, if you offer 10 mouldings. I have over 500. You say the job would only take 10 mins to do. If you stock 500 mouldings it can often take more than 10 mins to find the moulding!!
Without wishing to be pedantic the definition of bespoke is a term employed in a variety of applications to mean an item custom-made to the buyer's specification!

We stock over 500 mouldings and I would be unhappy if they took more than 10 minutes to locate! However we have spent time and money to ensure everything required to make a frame easy to find.
We produce both one off jobs and regular repeat orders. I keep my prices as competitve as possible (I always seem to be at the cheaper end of prices when I see comparisons on here) regardless if the job is for trade or retail by making the manufacturing process as smooth as possible and buying everythig from mouldings to consumables as competitively as possible.. Its probably easier for us to smooth production because apart from having some good bits of machinery I have different members of staff who print, cut frames, mounts, glass and back and assemblers My biggest overhead by far is labour. I have 8 members of staff which mean apart from a large wage bill every month also means 8 months of the year there is someone on holiday!

I think this thread shows we all have varying business models and for those of us who've been doing it for more than a couple of years must be doing something right- the proof of the pudding is in the eating!
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Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

Well said production framing whether it by bespoke or a run of fifty of the same is all about efficiency and streamlining your operations, that way you keep your labour to a minimum and frame more units a day, and increasing you profitability.
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