Price Check Please

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GeoSpectrum
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Price Check Please

Post by GeoSpectrum »

Hi All,

I completed my first frames today :) and although I am only framing my own items at present (part of the learning curve) I am keen to understand how much I would charge a paying customer so any guidance would be very much appreciated.

The frame is made for a vintage poscard by Mucha, from the following.

it is a small frame; glass size 255 x 217mm
Moulding £3.65 p/m
Conservation board hinged widow mount
ArtBak backing board
2mm float glass
£1 for D-rings and chord, tapes.
30% wastage
2 x mark up on all materials
£35 per hour labour
I am slow at the moment, I am assuming that eventually I will be able to make a a similar frame in about half an hour so have allowed £17.50 for labour.

I have worked this out to be £43.67 which feels a little on the high side given the size of the finished frame.
The basic formula used was (materials + wastage x 2) + VAT+ time. The markup covers my overheads.

I'd be glad to hear the opinion of the group! :?
Alan Huntley
Ashcraft Framing
Bespoke Easels and Self-assembly tray frames
http://www.ashcraftframing.co.uk
Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

Well done on completing your first job may it be the first of many.

If you give me the moulding code I would be able to give you my actual price. I just work on a material cost mark-up, but one thing you have to be careful with small frames like that is are you going to be able to re use the remaining moulding, and if it was from arqadia it is likely to be a 2 or 4 length pack. Doubling up you material cost on the moulding I has probably only just covered its cost.

One piece of advice is to offer a limited range of mouldings and mountboard colours, this way you will cut down on your wastage. I am just about to do my annual stock take and I have probably got over £5K of moulding a lot of which will not be used again in a hurry. As I am a commercial framer I am very concious of what I offer so I try to use mouldings which will suit other clients so as to minimise wastage from over ordering.

:D :D
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GeoSpectrum
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by GeoSpectrum »

Thanks for the reply,
The moulding is Ashworth & Thompson 5434.6543 13mm Green & Gold.
Alan Huntley
Ashcraft Framing
Bespoke Easels and Self-assembly tray frames
http://www.ashcraftframing.co.uk
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Jonny2morsos »

My price for that job in the same moulding would be £48.77 so I think you are in the right area.

I notice Wessex Pictures sell the same moulding at £4.87 a metre so A&T's price is competitive. It is always worth checking mouldings where duplication between suppliers occurs as there can be some surprising differences and a secondary source of supply can be helpful in out of stock situations.

I have to admit my prices have just been hiked as I felt if the government can slap on some extra VAT then I can raise my margin as well and this will take into account recent prices rises from Arqadia and others. If I had to give a 10% discount it would not hurt and I often run adverts and leaflets with "10% discount on production of this ad." This also helps with identifying successful adverts.
Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

Hi

Based in that moulding i would be looking to charge that out at about £21 +VAT (that is a retail price not a commercial price). Now my material cost of glass and backing I would say is probably cheaper than you because I buy in bulk, but it is the moulding which makes up the majority of the cost which I would buy at the same price as you. The thing that is killing you is your time cost even if you are only costing out half an hour. If you were to half the time then perhaps you wouldn't be far of the mark. I don't charge for my time but then I am not a retail framer.

As we have discussed unless this was a moulding I was going to re use or I had a sufficient order for the minimum amount of moulding I would have to charge more or take it on the chin as a loss leader if it was one of my better clients.

However I am all for charging what you can, so if you feel that you can get away with this then go for it. Everyones costs and overheads are different and you may well have to charge this amount to cover your overheads, but it is a catch 22 do I attract business buy offering affordable prices and get the work in or do I charge higher and do less work for the same return :?: :?:.

I would wait and see what other people are charging I would hazard a guess at around the £30-35.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Jonny2morsos »

The price I posted probably looks on the high side especially when compared to yours.

However, the moulding is not one I routinely stock and the amount required for this job is only 1.14m therefore the potential waste is 1.86m (62%!). In this case I might ask the customer if they had anything else they wanted to frame in the same moulding and offer them a deal to use up the remaining moulding.
Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

I agree with you on that Johnny that is why I put in the comment regarding that. I think in this day and age even us commercial framers are beginning to cost in unused moulding on non pack quantity jobs. However If I was the customer and was charged £48 for a 10x8 frame which I could buy from Wilkies for a fiver I might be a tad on the miffed side. I know that obviously a hell of a lot more work goes into a bespoke job but customers do use the high street a bench mark.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Trinity »

Given your location and where you appear to be in terms of experience you might strike up a relationship with Framing Essentials in Lincoln. You can buy moulding by the single length I believe and though you might pay a small premium you're not into buying 2ce what you need - unless that is you might still make that mistake and wish you'd bought another length!
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Jonny2morsos »

You might also like to consider Tawnycraft in Northampton who deliver up your way (Friday I think). Big range of mouldings all available single length, various makes of mount board and all the sundries plus if you want Simons moulding or anything from the Lion catalogue they will tag it onto their order and deliver out to you.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Gesso&Bole »

My computer says £44.60

This is inclusive of VAT, and in a City Centre retail environment.

I disagree that this sounds too much, and would resent terribly any suggestion that anybody could get anything whatsoever, anything like what I offer, from Wilcos at ANY price !!!!

Seriously, stop comparing bespoke prices with factory made prices, there is no point. Your price must be a factor of your costs and income requirements. True, if you are greedy for loads of profit, and very slow, your results will have to be very high quality, and your service very good, in order to persuade people to buy.

I've just had a quote for someone to make me a gate and side panel to a specific size, in a style to match my house. FYI that price is about 5 times as much as the nearest equivalent gate and side panel from Wickes.

So Geospectrum, quote your prices with confidence, but make sure the quality is there to justify the premium.
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Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

Gesso&Bole wrote:I disagree that this sounds too much, and would resent terribly any suggestion that anybody could get anything whatsoever, anything like what I offer, from Wilcos at ANY price !!!!


I didn't say that you could get anything like what you can make from wilkies but it is a perception that the general public does have. Now if someone was to walk into your city centre premises then I am sure they know what they are in for, however a new framer perhaps operating from home or from small retail premises then perception will be different.

I have always said that pricing must depend on what your particular circumstances, overheads and income requirements, but also on what the market is prepared to pay and if the market doesn't want to pay your price then people will vote with their feet.

I admit my prices are on the low side if I was in retail but I am a commercial framer with a lot lower overheads. However my mark ups are similar to what I used to use when I was in retail 10 yrs ago.

Pricing is difficult and no to situations are the same.

:D :D
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Framerpicture »

I think as Alistair says, as you get more used to framing you would bring a frame of that size down to about 15mins to complete.

Also from your calculation your allowing £1.00 for fittings and tape where in reality they will be much less than that when you buy from a wholesaler. My calculation below shows how important it becomes to buy materials at the right price for a job that only uses just over a meter of moulding and .6 sq ft of board and glass etc.

My costs for this job would be £5.83(yours may well be more)

30% wastage £1.75

Your calculation was for material + wastage x2 so 5.83+1.75 x2+ VAT = £18.19

Half hour labour/overhead =£17.50

Grand Total of £35.69


Hope this helps

Will
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Roboframer

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Roboframer »

Jonny2morsos wrote: It is always worth checking mouldings where duplication between suppliers occurs as there can be some surprising differences.
Amen to that!

I know this range; this moulding is the smallest profile in it. Simons don't do the whole range, just the two sizes above this one, and for the next size up, their price is £1:20 per ft (£3.94 per metre)
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by GeoSpectrum »

Many thanks for all your help, with a few tweeks I am feeling a bit more confident in my pricing. Time to test it out on joe public...
Alan Huntley
Ashcraft Framing
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by Nogbad »

Computer says £40.64 inc Vat but would discount that taking into account it would be made up mostly out of offcuts. We are town center and have lots of over framers in the area.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by JamesC »

My computer says £21-24 plus VAT if it is a stock frame and the customer supplied the postcard (about 5 times the price of a five quid one from wilkies or the range incidentally). I'll only add the cost of the scrap moulding above 30% waste if its bought in - but keep it for future use at no cost. I base most of my business online or for trade contracts and for that I tend to rarely dabble in anything this small - only for locals who walk in to the unit as little bonus jobs. In reality most of what I'd be using would be scrap or hard to use elsewhere so I may even give a bit of a discount if I think it will help either party.

I am quite flexible with pricing offline but have set prices online. I try to mix an element of time and an element of materials (the bigger the quantity the more it becomes about time). A pure material system I find will come up short in areas e.g if you times moulding by 4 a really expensive moulding job profits you much more than a cheap moulding job, despite taking the same time or some cases quicker. Great in theory but that prices you out of the good work sometimes and means you tend to get the cheap moulding jobs, at consequently lower rates per hour. Result is very small cheap frames are still about £20, big or expensive frames are not astronomical here.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by JohnMcafee »

While this is a great way for you to profitably dispose of what you regard as 'scrap' moulding, James, it tends to plant the notion that bespoke framing is inexpensive, and creates a resistance to the prices that a custom framer has to charge for the same job in order to stay in business.
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Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

James and I seem to come from the same area of business, we are both contract framers and have given similar quotes. I am quite happy to sell that frame for the price I quoted as long as I had use for the rest of that moulding or it was a stock moulding. However James and I obviously have lower overheads in not having to have high street premises which I know are greatly more expensive. This obviously means that we have a competitive advantage over high street framers, which is obviously reflected in the price.

With my price of £21.00 +VAT I make a handsome profit and give my customers value for money, which means that the odd bespoke customers i have come back. I don't go out of my way to advertise framing services and my website makes it clear that I am a commercial framer, but I don't turn people away if they turn up with a frame.

If a high street framer is able to get £40.00+ for the same job then fine and good luck to them, but please don't try and tell us what we can and cannot charge for a frame, we are all in business and have to be competitive, more so now in recession, with the demise of the high street and prominence of the internet.
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Re: Price Check Please

Post by JamesC »

I agree with Grays and the pricing works fine for me.

I'd love to double my prices - but I think the result would be I would go out of business or have to downsize - which could lead to a steady decent profit. Not ready for that yet at 30 - maybe when I'm older and winding down.

Personally although I'm a high calibre business and law graduate and want to make good profits I do think £35 an hour is quite steep for a garage framer to charge - but if he's got a local captive market and it works for him, great - on a similar basis maybe to the wedding photographer who needs to charge £1500 a day because they only get 20 gigs a year in their location if that. I question that there are many overheads or even much equipment outlay for a small time framer. There are also no qualifications required so such a price would need to be based on specialist skills or proven experience in my opinion.

I know fully time served joiners who charge £15 an hour or less and have a £10k depreciating van full of expensive and insured tools, and get up at 6 in the morning to start. Maybe that's to do with being a pikey northerner but all the same it's a reality round here.

I looked at my profit margins last year and they were very healthy - not of the total size I want to be yet, but only been going 5 years and it's a marathon not a sprint. If I continue to grow and keep the same margin all hunky dory. One thing that is concerning me is the rocketing price of supplies e.g. good quality acrylic has mushroomed. When I look at my accounts this year end I will judge if my set prices need to rise. That's difficult though when people are feeling the pinch. If suddenly sales drop off a couple of people would lose jobs here and that's a big concern to me - more so than other framers profit despite nice bunch they can be.
Graysalchemy

Re: Price Check Please

Post by Graysalchemy »

Well said :clap: :clap: . Glad to see another commercial framer on here. Pricing is a very contentious issue with a lot of framers wanting to keep prices high. But this is 2011 and we are still not out of the worst economic down turn for a generation. Pricing needs to be realistic and obviously James and I are both happy with our profitability and growth of our businesses. I would prefer to complete more jobs for less money than fewer jobs for more money, that is a very precarious situation to be in in a fragile market. Having said that if you are busy then well done.

Alistair
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