Assisting local artists

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ChrisG
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Assisting local artists

Post by ChrisG »

A local artist has approached me to frame a series of watercolours for various exhibitions (all the same mounts and mouldings etc). As must be typical for many artists she can't afford the framing without some sales but won't get the sales without the framing - catch22.

I'd like the work as there will probably be follow ons plus as she teaches there could be referrals. So how can 1/should I assist?

A couple of options that spring to mind are:
frame the artwork now for nothing and expect full payment once the first unit is sold;
charge materials only until something is sold (then at least I'm not 'out of pocket').

Anybody else been in a similar situation?

ChrisG
Roboframer

Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Roboframer »

Maybe good artists are able to afford framing from previous sales. She's obviously not confident she's going to sell anything - can't prove to you she has any sort of following/collectors and is probably not interested in what looks best but what costs least.

She's not prepared to speculate to accumulate but expects you to.

If you want to get into Sale Or Return then make sure you get carte blanch and don't frame everything the same, frame well and to suit - her stuff would stand out from most of, if not all the rest doing the same old thing.

Personally I'd offer some sort of quantity discount in return for a plug at the exhibitions but maybe with an offer to frame on a SOR basis if she sells most of her work, quickly.
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Jonny2morsos
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Jonny2morsos »

Personally I would steer clear. Artists who don't want to pay much are a PITA and I would see one that wants to pay nothing up from as an even bigger one.

She obviously does not have much confidence in her work selling so why should you subsidise her?

There was a local exhibition over the weekend and the best selling artist (by a long way) was one who comes to me for decent framing. OK I give her a discount but having sold work she will be back for some more soon.

Why not look at what you can achive for her at a reasonable price using things like plain ash or even synthetic moulding. If you just supply frame, glass, mount and backboard and let her put it together herself it would save her some cash.
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Tim
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Tim »

I've done this in the past, but I took payment in artwork (and photographs). I found out how much the artists work went for in exhibitions, say £300. I reduced that by the price I'd CHARGE for a frame (say £100), leaving a retail of £200 for the artwork. Divide that in two, since I'm offering to 'buy' their work at trade prices, and offer that price as a discount against framing. Essentially I took one piece of work per frame in most cases.
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stcstc

Re: Assisting local artists

Post by stcstc »

i wont do this

if you were a baker do you think you could go to tescos and ask them not to charge for the milk and flour until you sold your bread you baked?
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Tim
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Tim »

But interestingly, that's exactly what Tesco, and every other supermarket does. They don't pay for anything until they've already sold it!
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Not your average framer »

I don't do this either. It's a mug's game and we are still in a recession!
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stcstc

Re: Assisting local artists

Post by stcstc »

well not quite tim, they get 30 days or maybe 60 days credit and then push their look to longer
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Tim
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Tim »

heh - is it the milk or the flour that you think spend longer than 60 days on Tescos shelves :D
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prospero
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by prospero »

You have to assess the situation carefully. Are they doing saleable work or are they 'happy dabblers'? Many is the time I have had 'artists' bringing stuff in that they want to sell. They may have been to art college and got top marks, but you have to ask yourself whether J.Public will actually want to hang the stuff on their walls and pay for the privilege. It's amazing how people don't think that far. People in general want 'pretty pictures'. They don't want to buy the artist's ego.

If you do think the artist has promise, it's important to lay down a few ground rules. I've no qualms about doing framing for artists at trade prices or even framing one up on the basis that they pay for the frame when the picture sells. I like to try and help if I think they have talent and more important, a good business attitude. You have to nail them down at the outset and reach a firm understanding. If you are helping them in their career in whatever way, be it framing or using your contacts to sell their work, you must insist on a certain level of commitment. I don't demand exclusive rights. One of the worst things is when you have worked to build a following for the artist and they start selling to the public at prices less your commission. They are still getting the same dosh for the paintings, but basically cutting you out the loop. Very unprofessional.

I can see this from both sides, being an artist myself. :lol: When I first started out, I got to know a local framer/gallery who framed up about half a dozen paintings on spec. He sold a couple fairly quickly, which paid for the other four. :D This arrangement worked very well for a while until he sold the business. The guy who took over was, in a word, a tit. :roll: That's when I started doing my own framing. The rest is history.
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JamesC
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Re: Asng costs more.sisting local artists

Post by JamesC »

Getting paid in paintings is not great and won't put food on your table, unless you have a shop then it's stock and maybe a good deal can be done... Or if you like the work and really think the person has potential i.e. they have talent and motivation then maybe worth having it as a personal investment.

If you are starting out it may be an OK strategy also to take a small risk waiting for payment in order to keep working, build a name, etc.

I agree too often we framers almost get asked to fund the business of others. People who ask for a quantity price then expect the same for a one-off are asking similar - for you to take the ris/loss for them or while they build a decent enough trade to be profitable. It's a trap you have to try and avoid generally but it might be worth having a few customers you think are worth backing within your mix of work.

Having said this a small amount of credit for trade customers is quite normal and you need to recognise when it's right to do a better deal for potentially good customers. Unless you simply want to do bespoke small quantity work only for an easy life.

I've turned some local customers away recently wanting things too cheap - but in future I plan to consider the option of supplying the frame only without any fitting (the bit that takes a long time and is quite fiddly). People will soon learn that it takes time and why custom framing costs more than ready-mades and looks better. It also saves losing the customer or them telling people you are expensive. If you are getting the same rate per hour it should make no real odds to you if you are busy.
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Roboframer »

'Ready-mades-to-order' is a sale clincher we use fairly often, but sometimes you end up giving a mounting and finishing course for 20 minutes when they collect!

We used to sell quite a bit of stuff for a paricular artist until one day she asked if it would be OK to take a few from the shop to put in a local exhibition - no problem. Except that we went to the exhibition to see she'd dropped the prices dramatically.

"Oh, they wouldn't sell for more here"! She says. Well that would just make us look bad/expensive so we dropped her - shame.

(BTW if you take work on a SOR basis from a non-VAT registerd artist and add a commission - you only add/pay VAT on that commission)

At the other end there's a couple of artists, husband and wife, who are very very good and I got so cheezed off with the tat that they were asking for that (after a couple of years) I offered to frame about 20 paintings SOR for an exhibition - deep wrapped bevels, washlines, double mounts with fillets between; even museum glass on a few - they sold all bar a couple (always did really, otherwise I wouldn't have done it) and now, bar the museum glass, they order similar and I've won customers from their exhibitions too - both artists and punters.

The museum glass got absolutely covered in fingerprints - probably from people wondering if there was any glass - and they vowed never again because it was a 'bugger to clean' - a lesson there I suppose.
standenfineart
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by standenfineart »

Is this artist absolutely broke with no friends or family. If the answer is no to any of the above then you are being asked to front-fund a risk that none of these is prepared to entertain. Just a hard nosed business view.
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Not your average framer »

I have a deal with bank manager. He doesn't do framing and I don't do loans loans and finance.

If the bank manager can't or won't finance them, then why should I?
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prospero
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by prospero »

I've seen some of the frames in my local bank and they are carp. :lol:


The big excuse from (budding) artists is that why spend 100 quid on a frame when they only sell the paintings for 120. I tell them if put a decent frame on they can sell the same work for 400 quid. :clap:
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Framerpicture
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by Framerpicture »

Roboframer wrote: (BTW if you take work on a SOR basis from a non-VAT registerd artist and add a commission - you only add/pay VAT on that commission)

We sell a lot of work on commission and what Robo says is quite true but you do need a full audit trail for this to be acceptable to HMRC.

This includes a full listing in your (commision) stock book of the article for sale and the full name and address of the purchaser and of course the artist. If this isn't adhered to its possible, if you have a vist from HMRC that you could be charged full VAT on the entire sale price.
We also give artists this information and get them to sign to say they understand that the picture is still their property and the commision part of the sale is our charge for selling it. The artist also needs to understand that when they enter the sale in their books its for the full price attained including commision and the commision is a cost of sale.


A Vat invoice should be issued to the artist for the commision and a record of the full

We have had to adapt our bookkeeping system to allow for the payment to the artist to pass through with out accuring VAT which took my accountant some time to get his head round!

I'd be interested on others views on this
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prospero
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by prospero »

When I do this I make out an invoice and itemise it. So much for the artist @ 0% and then take the vat off my slice. I get the artist to sign my copy of the invoice to say they have been paid. Different if the artist is vat reg.

I've had arguments with accountants about this and some have sworn blind I have to pay vat on the whole sale. In the end I queried it with the vat office and they said my way was right and I have a letter stating such on file. :P
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adam68
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Re: Assisting local artists

Post by adam68 »

I think your idea is the best :)
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