Urgent advice needed please

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CalicoFraming
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Urgent advice needed please

Post by CalicoFraming »

A customer just came around to tell me they'd changed their mind about a large order they'd placed. I've said they can pay the cost price for the materials I've already ordered and which have arrived and then they can walk away. They're refusing even to do that, and so I said they can have their artwork back once they've paid for the materials.

I did take a deposit but haven't had a chance to cash the cheque yet so effectively have no deposit.

Can anyone tell me where I stand in this matter?

Thanks
:sweating:
Roboframer

Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Roboframer »

Your order is a written contract, take them to the small claims court and never mind cost of materials either. Also hang on to their artwork until it's settled.
CalicoFraming
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by CalicoFraming »

Just to be absolutely clear, the evidence I have of making the order is a not in a duplicate order book, so I still have the carbon copy, which includes a note of the total price and that I took 50% deposit. I also still have the uncashed cheque. I don't have any sort of disclaimer or any other note about what the deposit is for, returns policies, etc.

Forgive me for wanting to be belt and braces about this, I'm very wary of being wrongfooted legally here. I'm definitely ok to hang onto the paintings and possibly go to small claims court right?

thanks for the help with this
Roboframer

Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Roboframer »

I'm no legal expert - but I'm sure you're in the right - check out the definition of 'Lien' here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lien
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Tudor Rose
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Tudor Rose »

This is a difficult one and not just from a legal point of view.

We made sure early on that all orders are written out and then signed by the customer authorising us to do the work - this covers us legally and so far (touch wood) we haven't had issues with it. From a legal point of view they made a contract with you either verbally or in writing and so you could theoretically take them to small claims court and get your costs back.

The other point of view though is why has this customer changed their mind and how important is it for you to keep them as a future customer? Was it the design choice they didn't like or did they decide after mulling it over that they just couldn't afford to have the work done and are too embarrassed to say so? The other thing to consider is whether the moulding and mountboard they chose is something that you could still sell on easily to another customer. We have had people changing their minds in the past, we have one customer who's order always goes into pending for a few days after she has been in because we know she will phone to change the order, but we have always managed to find a way round the situation and still keep people as customers. It is after all easier to keep a current customer than gain a new one.

How much good PR would you get by looking at all aspects of this and resolving this amicably with your customer and still getting a job out of it, compared to how much BAD PR you might get if you dig your heels in. I suppose it depends on all the circumstances, which only you and the customer are fully aware of, and what the long term effects of ANY action you take might be.

Whatever you decide, good luck with it and we hope it sorts itself out for you.
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CalicoFraming
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by CalicoFraming »

Well, the customer met with me yesterday and expressed her view that framing was expensive, but after she heard what I had to say on this seemed persuaded that the care and quality of the work justified it and she went ahead and place an order for a number of frames. We haggled quite a lot over the price and I think in fact she got a very good deal, and I did say so.

Since then she's been told by her husband that she's 'mental' paying that kind of money for framing and her daughter's art teacher (?!) has told her I should have offered some alternative, much cheaper framing option - a cradle, I think.

I just spoke to her again and said I'd fulfill the contract if we couldn't inject some good faith back into the situation and that I'd then expect payment in full. We've therefore agreed that she pay for the cost of the materials, I return the artwork, and that's it.

The PR angle is interesting. Of course no-one wants someone going around bad mouthing your business, but you know what, I always try to be fair with people and will usually give a lot of ground in order to preserve goodwill. Sometimes I think you have to stand your ground. And she may well have been a repeat customer, but not the sort I want.

Let's hope she comes up with the cash for the materials and goes away with no more said.

Thanks for all the advice, it's been very helpful
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Tudor Rose
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Tudor Rose »

Sounds like the best resolution that could have been got from the situation. Hopefully she will keep to her side of the bargain this time and if not then you always have the legal route as a back up.
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Not your average framer
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Not your average framer »

I've been in a very similar situation more than once and I've always tried to understand the customers position too! Where the situation involves objection to the price by the husband of the customer, I've found it helpful to ask the customer to come back with her husband to see if a compromise, or alternative can be negociated that he will be happy with.

When the husband is in the shop, he will invariably be nicer face to face, if you are nice about it as well. Obviously you can't always rescue the original deal, but you still may get to frame the picture to a lower spec and a lower price. If the customer goes away with the feeling that you went out of you way to be more than fair with them and you don't give them a guilt trip about it, then you may still get to keep a potential future customer and I have got future business from such people.

Sufficient to say there have been times where I've been stuck with materials ordered for the job and had to find another use for them, probably at a lower profit too! Unfortunately, the alternative of creating bad feelings has the potential to cost you even more, if they start saying bad things about you.
Mark Lacey

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― Geoffrey Chaucer
CalicoFraming
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by CalicoFraming »

Mark ,you're right of course, but it wasn't just that they decided they didn't want to spend the money, it was the attitude she came back with - implying I was trying to rip them off and even sell them frames that were totally unnecessary for the job. And then also when I suggested she pay for the materials I'd already received and we call it quits she began telling me I could return them, sell them to someone else, etc. I've never like being told what to do, least of all when it's none of the other person's business.

On reflection, I could have dealt with it more calmly, and that's my normal approach, but this person got right under my skin with her attitude and I just knew she was bad news and that I wanted no more to do with her. I love meeting my customers and have a great relationship with all of them, it's one of the great pleasures of doing this job, and even now after this event is passed and I'm in a calmer frame of mind I'm glad I got shot of her. I don't need people like that spoiling my day or my enjoyment of the job, even if the business aspect does risk being compromised.

But thanks for the gently words of caution anyway
:D
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Steve N
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Steve N »

Well that's what being in business is all about, you just got to take it on the chin, you lose some :head: , both you win a damn sight more :ninja:
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Steve N
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Steve N »

Some other things to think about.
If you make her pay for the materials, she would be entitled to take them with her.

Also it would fuel the their thinking that you were trying to rip them off, because if that is all it cost in material, why are you charging so much to frame these pictures, it's immaterial how you are framing the pictures and how long it will take, they will just see the cost price and the price you are charging, then they would tell all their friends about you and how much profit you are making

Just mark it up to experience, and just push the materials onto the next customers that come in :giggle:
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Re: Urgent advice needed please

Post by Not your average framer »

With hindsight, it is tempting to consider other ways this could have been handled. Hindsight does not change the situation with this customers, but it gives the opportunity to discuss other options and other possible outcomes. I hope that we may get a range of different ideas from anyone who has any useful insight that they may wish to share.

Steve N has just made some particularly important points, which raises the question of taking deposits. I know that there can be problems in getting a deposit at times and having to decide whether to go ahead without a deposit. However if a deposit was taken, then there is no reason why you should get into any discussion about the cost of raw materials at all.

Faced with this situation, I have never refused to return at least part of the deposit, because I think it is bad for PR to keep the whole deposit. I don't know how much deposit others normally seek to get, but I usually suggest a deposit of one third to my customers. Not that I always get that much as I'm willing to be flexible, but if for example I was given a deposit of one third, I would try to resolve the situation )without being too domatic) as follows:

1. If I had not purchased any materials for the customer at all, I would fully refund the customers deposit, but I would not to find out why they wanted to back out of the deal before settling the matter. If another framer has decided to beat my price, I would reserve my option to insist that I got the order and not the other framer, but I would aim to match the competitors price if practical to do so, or otherwise retain part of the deposit to cover my design time which the other framer was taking advantage of.

2. If I had already ordered materials then I would expect to be able to cover these materials out of perhaps half of the deposit. Assuming that I could use the materials to make ready made frames, or mirrors, I would seek to charge as small an amount as possible, without suffering unreasonable losses. I would not allow the suggestion that this was to cover the cost of materials, as this is asking for trouble. Also I would not disclose any material costs either, this is not something I would want them to know.

Obviously the time spent during the design process represents a loss to me, but I had no garrantee of getting the order in the first place, so I would let that go unless another framer was getting the job which I had already done the design preparation for. Regardless of the outcome, my priority would be that the customer leaves the shop feeling good about how I treated them.
Mark Lacey

“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Experience treacherous. Judgement difficult.”
― Geoffrey Chaucer
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