Morso nightmare

[girlfromkent]

Hello

Me again. I do hope that in the future I will be able to contribute usefully and not just take take take advice all the time

But for now... PLEASE can someone help with my Morso hell.

I was having trouble getting perfect joins. Thought it was either my bad technique, or the underpinner, but yesterday I was looking more closely and realised it could be the angle of the cuts. I was getting a bad join on one corner, slightly open on the outside. Every time. More visible on bigger mouldings. It's as if, if I put my hand on the inside of one side, and pull outwards a bit, it would be perfect.

Now my maths is terrible, so forgive me in advance.

I've read through various threads on this topic. I've read the manual. I've changed my blades for a set freshly sharpened by Wessex. I've aligned the blades at the front and the bottom until my eyes hurt. I've made sure there is no gap between top and underblades.

Today I've spent hours trying to line up the rule with the left and right fence and I just don't get it.

I put a rule I believe is straight along the measure. This will not align perfectly with the right fence, because the right fence doesn't quite meet it, but I can eyeball it straight. This done, the right fence is dead on the 45 marker.

If I put the left fence in a dead straight line with the right, it too hits the 45 marker. Should be golden. But it's not.

Then I noticed that compared to the rule, it looks as though there is an increasing gap between the underblades and the fences. Could the cutting head be out of alignment? Or is that just crazy talk?!

Maybe I need an engineer / service / new Morso?

All help gratefully received as this is driving me nuts.

[girlfromkent]

[girlfromkent]

I should also mention that my workshop is small, so I am not always able to feed mouldings in from the left.

If they are full 3m then I have to lift them over and down, meaning my first cut is a double cut.

I have feeling this may make a difference, as the 'left hand tweak' may not apply?

[girlfromkent]

Just tried again to set up with fences straight, tested on moulding with a sight line, and now it appears the angles are different on each side, one side of the join

is too long

[StevenG]

Before I'd change anything with the morso I'd get a new set of blades. Any issue I've ever had with mine has always been down to blades.

I know they're not cheap but for the sake of your sanity I reckon it's a worthwhile investment.

[girlfromkent]

Considering it, Steven but don't really want to splash right now, especially if that's not the problem.

It seems like the cutting head isn't aligned with the fences but I don't know if that's even possible.

[Not your average framer]

Don't panic, it's now as bad as you may be thinking. The cast iron block where the bottom blades are fitted, is not going the have an axact dead straight line that is necessarily be nicely in line with the cast top plate of the Morso. Molten cast iron is poured into a mold and the cast iron is allowed to cool and solidify and the cast iron shrinks as it cools. Any accuracy you might be expecting, goes right out the window and then they machine the parts of the casting, that need to be accurate. The edge that you are expecting to line up with your ruler is not one of the, That edge is just the raw, unmachined casting, is not machined to be dead straight, because it does not matter. The bottom blades are held in position be hexagon socket screw known as Allen key cap head screws. When these screws are loosened there is quite a lot of slop in the alignment of the bottom blades, even though the screws are still in place. This give you the movement to align these bottom blades with the top blades and this is how you adjust the gap, between the top blades and the bottom blades. There must be a very slight gap, to allow the blades to move freely, but it needs to be literally a fag paper clearance.

Next bit. The fences are not normally exactly in line with each other, otherwise you won't get 90 degree angles at the frame corners when they are joined on the underpinner! The left hand fence needs to be moved out of alignment with the calibrated mark to correct the angle at which the mitre joint is cut, it's a bit of a trial and error thing and it takes a while getting used to which way to move the fence and by how much. So a bit of a learning curve thing here and it takes a bit of practice to get it right. The position of the fences and the bottom blades, need checking each time that you change the blades and you need to check everything cutting right with some scrap wood. Not everyone sends blades away for resharpening at the same level of sharpness, many of us try and get as much use out of the blade between each time we send the blades away for sharpening, often you can still use blades that are just starting to go dull, by slight adjusting the lift hand fence a little bit.

However it does not take too long before the cutting action of the blades, slightly crushes the front face of the moulding and needs more pressure to make the cut. Another thing that can happen is that the cutting action of the blades, requires a better grip on the moulding you are cutting as the blades sometimes start to push the moulding sideways as the cut is made. Softer woods, such as Obeche, or Pine don't much like blades that are starting to lose their edge and don't also cut as cleanly as the should. You'll spot these things you self, after a bit of experience and practice. I regrind my own blades, in between sending them away to be professionally ground, but I'm an ex-engineer and have the knowedge and the kit to get away with it. Your Morso is your friend, get to know when it feels right and get to know when it's feeling slightly off and find out why. A little bit of TLC administered in time, can save spending more money fixing it when it did not get sorted in time. Finally, Morso's like a little bit of lubrication, every now and then.

[Not your average framer]

Steven is right, always suspect problems with the blades and correct adjustments first. Checking the blades and problems with adjustment and alignment issues, usual make everything else easier to diagnose. Morso's usually go on forever with a little bit of TLC and spare parts are rarely if ever needed. It's not easy to hammer a Morso as long as you give it the necessary TLC from time to time!

Underpinners like a bit of regular TLC too! Look after your kit and it will serve you well.

[girlfromkent]

Thanks Mark this is somewhat reassuring. Was starting to think I'd bought a dodgy Morso, or that the head had somehow got mullered. It is from the 60s.

Regarding the left hand fence adjustment, given that I am not feeding in from the left (no room), I don't understand how this beneficially changes the angles, unless you then adjust the right fence as well, so changing the angle of the moulding to the blades? Sorry if I'm being dense, maths never was my strong point. At the mo if I adjust the left fence all that happens is that the moulding then doesn't sit flush against the fences. Don't see how that helps.

[Not your average framer]

As you take a few cuts through the thickness of the moulding, it will flex enough for you to hold the moulding flat against both fences, using both hands and it will start to make sense. if you are not holding the moulding tight against both fences, how is changing the angle of the fence going to make any difference, but as you cut part ways through the moulding it can be made to flex a little and the moulding will pull back tight against both fences.

This is a regular topic on this forum and there are plenty of earlier posts on exactly the same subject, if you want to do a search for these posts. I may reassure you to know that you are not the only one who finds this a bit strange, but in spite of all that, this is how using a Morso has to work. After a while, it become second nature, but at first it's a bit confussing. Stick with it, these things all fall into place as you go on.

[ChrisG]

Are the blades a matched pair? Difficult to tell from the photos but they look like they are stamped with different numbers.

The other slight tweak I have found is to do with the positioning of the blade bolts in the drillings within the blades. The drillings are slightly larger than the bolts and it is possible to achieve a nice straight front end but with the blades sitting low on the bolts particularly the bolt furthest from you.
So as part of your blade alignment ensure that the hexagonal bolt heads are all roughly central within the recesses within the blades. If that makes sense.

[Justintime]

When i was struggling with mine, an engineer asked me to do this test.
Lock the blades in the bottom/hidden position. Move the blades to the front position (as for the final cut).
Grab the top of the blade assembly with both hands, at the top left and top right and try to wiggle it.
If there is movement in the sliders, (that the deck slides back and forth in) then the covers with the allen key bolts can be removed, cleaned down and repositioned to eliminate this wiggle in the cutting head.
Another check, which took three years for someone to point out to me, but is probably obvious...
Looking at the measuring scale on the right, you have the long one running parallel to you and the short one(to measure the width of the moulding) perpendicular to you. Place a ruler on the long scale against the short scale and just check that this measurement is accurate (mine was out ). Once you are sure that your measuring scale is positioned correctly at this point, you can check the positioning of the rest of the right hand scale for straightness. Then you can recheck your fences against this.
Your bottom "blades" should be checked and adjusted each time you refit blades, to be as close to the blades as possible without touching the blades.
As someone pointed out before, those dates don't seem to match up on your blades, that's not good.
A quick check to see if you have aligned the front of your blades properly. Put a strip of paper where the moulding would go and do a cut half way through it. It will show if you've got a perfect cut or if there is a slight overcut on one blade.
Some may say that I'm being overly complicated here, but I struggled for many months with mine. Eventually I discovered every possible point that could be cleaned/repositioned and I double checked everything. Lighter fluid is great to clean parts and Silicone Lube Spray (also sold as "Back to Black" in car spares shops) is a great lubricant where needed.
Ultimately, buying a brand new set of blades sorted everything out!! I feel your pain, but a new set of blades and the frustration of getting to know your machine is cheaper than a new one...
All the major suppliers have technicians who I found incredibly open and helpful, when needed.
Good luck!

[Not your average framer]

I was aware that "Back to black" was silicone based, but I had no idea that people are using it a lubricant. That's very interesting! I often use GT85 teflon spray lubricant, or there's a spray can of a silicone lubricant that my local hardware shop sells. Holts also produce a spray can of rubber lubricant as well at various time I have used all, except the back to black to libricate various things around the workshop. Back to black as a lubricant is very useful to know. Thanks for that Jiustin.

[girlfromkent]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Despite much testing and adjusting, something's still off. Getting a gap in the join at the back.

Think will have to bite the bullet and get new blades.

Yes the blades are mismatched. I have the other mismatched pair, but it looks as though they have been muddled for a long time as the original pairs no longer match either, which I guess would make sense after 30 years of being sharpened as a mismatch.

I just hope new blades solve it.

[Chris_h]

Is your outside wedge close to the edge of the moulding? Sometimes this can cause the back to open a little.

[Justintime]

As Chris said, looks like your underpinning too close to the back.
But honestly, underpinning Oak can be a really difficult at the best of times. I bought a Hoffmann router in the end...
I suggest glue and clamp and underpin with clamp on (its a fiddle but possible), alternatively glue and clamp overnight and underpin in the morning.
For a fairer test of your Morso, try some straight and flat obeche, it'll give you a much better indication of whats going on. I was advised to keep some wide flat softwood for tests like this.

[Not your average framer]

Ah! This is a different problem and this one is not caused by the blades, or the fences and as it's cause by a different problem, it's requires a different solution. So before we explain how to fix the problem, we will explain what causes the problem. If you understand the problem it makes it easier to understand the solution and why, or how this will fix the problem. There are various different hard woods that generally don't compress much to acomomdate the wedges as they are inserted into the corner mitre joints. The harder and tougher the wood, the less it tends to give, so the width of the wood has to increase a bit, because a metal wedge has been pressed into it.

The wedge is probably something like perhaps 0.5mm thick, so the wood has to move to acommodate 0.5mm as the end furthest from the glueed face of the joint, but the amount that the wood moves as you approach the glue face of the joint becomes larger, because the piece of wood the moves will tend to stay staight, because this is the line of least resistance. The thinner this piece is that is trying to move to allow space for the wedge, being inserted, the more easily the thin piece of wood will move and the less the thicker remaining part of the moulding will move. Something has to move, so whatever requires the least force to move it is the piece that will more the most.

The further the outside wedge is from the outside of the moulding, the more force it takes to the deflected part of the moulding to move, and the force gets distribted to both side of the inserted wedge more evenly. causing some movement on the inside of the moulding as well and therefore less movement on the outside as a direct effect. Some mouldings can be more difficult to join than others and there will be times when it helps to insert the outer wedges first and the inner wedges after you have already inserted the outermost wedges.

Some underpinner have rebate clamps which have teeth to grip the inside face of the rebate and force the two moulding length tightly together, most people who do not come from a design and engineering background, will not notice that these rebate clamps of further back from the immediate vicinity of the joint and allows some movement to occur and allowing a little bit of movement and therefore some swelling inside the rebate, which is going to result in less movement occurring at the outside of the corner, but this is how some of these rebate clamps wort on machines where the designer is smart enough to understand how to make this happen.

This is why some underpinners are better than others, but there still are clever tricks to get better results out of underpinners that have limitations, ultimately there's not much you can't overcome with cheaper underpinners, if you have a little bit of know how.

As Chris has already pointed out, your outside wedges are probably to close to the outside edge of the moulding, but now you should be able to understand the reasons why this why cause problems as well.

[prospero]

The last pic is definitely a underpinning issue. It's not the machine, but with Oak you need really firm pressure or the two
pieces will 'lift and separate' before the vnail bites. Once it does it will pull the faces together as it is designed to do, giving
the exact result as in the pic. Underpinners are great, but they have their limits.
As previously said, sometimes different methods are needed for Oak with can vary in density. I have had some that was hard as iron
and defies even conventional nails.
My method with very hard woods is to use a hard pad on the pinner, insert a one shallow vnail and drill/cross nail toward
the face of the moulding. And have some filler standing by.

[Tom Chambers]

Great learning folks for many of us, I just realised that I have been guilty of having outer wedge too close to the outside and getting this now and again. Had thought it was my morso and spent many hours aligning and getting good results but every now and then this issue. Have to say I am learning more and more every day from the forum.

[Not your average framer]

Give it time and it might be you sharing the tips with other new members! It's great how people quickly grow from beginners to proper framers so quickly on this forum. We are all hands on people on here and lots of us are doing our own thing after a while too!