Mountcutter

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Thu 20 Sep, 2007 7:06 pm

Guy's, after a little help here....

I'm after a 2nd hand mountcutter, but unsure of which to go for????
I've seen the Keencut (various), but hoped someone here with so much more experience can point me in a good mountcutter direction.
I want one that is easy to use, not too complex & has easy set stops...

Also I'm after a 2nd hand underpinner, so again some help please...
This too should be easy not complex (I sound a bit of a numpty here).

Both of these are for, to start with, for practise & then for use in the big bad world of framing as a small business (to start with.....

.

I'm saying 2nd hand, as I'd like to if possible keep the price down, but if the best way forward is new, then so be it... Also approx prices would help....

any help will be Greatly Appreciated, as before....

Cheers
Johnny.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:02 pm

Hi Johnny,

I've got a Keencut Ultimat Gold. Really easy to set stops, and easy-to-use all round.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:19 pm

J9,

Ultimats can be had from £500+ on ebay, typically selling for £6-700. There's one there now which might be worth watching:

Ebay

As for underpinners, foot operated or air? There's a lot of choice. Again, look to ebay for prices, search on 'underpinner' and if there's one that takes your fancy, ask here for opinions.

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:32 pm

Hi Moglet,

Thanks for the info, I was leaning towards the Ultimat Gold's,
They seem to be the most used & have the keencut quality...

Thanks again......

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:36 pm

Hi Spit,

Thanks for the info also, it's great that people take the time to reply quick, I Really Appreciate it

Probably will opt for the ultimat gold.......

I'd probaly go for a foot operated underpinner, but not too sure on which are good makes & models.... Any info???

Thanks again for your help

Not your average framer · Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:51 pm

Hi Johnny,

Cassese is the easy option. The wedges are in plastic shutes, which save time and hassle when changing wedge sizes. If as you say, you are going for manual I've got the CS-78 which has been great, but the CS-88 is even better. I would have gone for the CS-88, but for me money was tight at the time.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Thu 20 Sep, 2007 9:56 pm

I've been using the CS-88 for two years now, again very easy to use, and reliable, in my experience. I can actually stack wedges in tall ash mouldings with it!

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 8:07 am

I tried a few mountcutters and underpinners before settling on the Keencut Ultimat and the Cassese CS-88.

I bought the Ultimat new and have never regretted it. The only thing I wish I could do more easily with it is reverse bevels with small margins (the reverse bevel stop doesn't allow for a margin less than about 80mm) and a more accurate way of doing angled cuts (when cutting, for example, an octagonal window).

The CS-88 came from eBay and is totally reliable. There's not a lot to go wrong with the machine and it looks as if it would be pretty easy to replace any parts than might wear out. The wedge cassettes are easy to change as they just slide in and out without altering the stops or anything and there's a good selection of wedge sizes available (down to 3mm for pinning slips etc).

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 4:37 pm

Guys,

Thanks again for all you help, I think I will probably go for a Keencut, I've seen a few on ebay, but not seen many Cassesse Underpinners for sale, Do any of you know where is best to look for 2nd hand Framing Equipment???

Cheers
Johnny.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 4:56 pm

Are you in a hurry for one? A bit of patience is required on Ebay - you might look one day and there's nothing, the next there might be 3. I can't imagine anywhere else would have the number of machines for sale at any time that ebay does.

When I was looking for a Morso I waited over a month for one at the right price & condition!

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 5:51 pm

Johnny9 wrote:Do any of you know where is best to look for 2nd hand Framing Equipment???

eBay is probably the best place but it's also worth keeping an eye on Wessex (http://www.wessexpictures.com) - they have a second-hand machinery list though there's no Cassese underpinners there at present.

By the way, I had to phone Keencut for help a few times and found them very helpful in talking through problems and sending samples of different blades, etc.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 6:00 pm

I forgot to say -- it's always worth phoning around -- people who sell new items sometimes take old ones in exchange and might have something.

It's also worth asking about special offers -- when I bought my Morso I got a significant discount from Lion who had it on special offer -- not that I knew that till I ordered it.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 6:09 pm

Johnny, might be worth contacting some framing materials suppliers, as they may either have some second-hand kit to sell on (I sold a mountcutter through one of my suppliers a while back), or alternatively they may know that a framer they supply may be interested in selling on second-hand equipment.

WelshFramer wrote: The only thing I wish I could do more easily with it is reverse bevels with small margins (the reverse bevel stop doesn't allow for a margin less than about 80mm) ....

Hi Welshframer, on my Ultimat Gold, when cutting reverse bevels I add an extra 3mm to the required border width on the top and bottom stops (e.g. 53mm for a 50mm border). Really helps with avoiding overcuts.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 6:17 pm

Moglet wrote:Hi Welshframer, on my Ultimat Gold, when cutting reverse bevels I add an extra 3mm to the required border width on the top and bottom stops (e.g. 53mm for a 50mm border). Really helps with avoiding overcuts.

Good advice. But how do you achieve a 50mm border? Are you using then reverse bevel stop or cutting the board face up?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 6:27 pm

If the stops are set plus of the margin guide then the board is being cut face up.

I use this method only I add 1/4" to the start of cut stop and 1/8" to the end of cut stop - all depends on blade depth etc I suppose - but for me this produces a tiny undercut.

Measure the overcuts on the back of a normal bevelled mount to see what you need to add to eliminate them when cutting face up and then complete the cuts by hand.

I don't know what reverse bevel stops are

But there is a way of cutting face down without having to finish by hand - use the squaring arm as the margin guide and take off the width of the cutter bar - e.g. cutter bar is 2 1/2" wide and you want a 3 1/2" margin - set the squaring arm stop to 1" IOW the fall ouit will be on the other side of the cutter bar - and you'll have to remove the margin guide.

Trouble with the keencut is that the squaring arm stop cannot be set that small!!! So only of any use with pretty wide margins.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 6:43 pm

Roboframer wrote:I don't know what reverse bevel stops are

The reverse bevel stop fits to the right of the cutter bar.It's supplied with a ruler scale that replaces the gold strip that's to the right of the bar and above the ULTIMAT label.

They're mentioned on Keencut's website and, so far as I know, they're only available direct from Keencut. I'm not sure they're worth the money (though I can't remember how much they cost) as there are other ways of cutting a reverse bevel and they have the disdvantage of a minimum margin size of 74mm -- still, who needs small margins?

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 7:24 pm

I cut the mount face down, with the guide bar removed (similar to technique for multi-aperture mounts). It might not be a very elegant solution, but it works for me!

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 8:03 pm

WelshFramer wrote:It's also worth asking about special offers -- when I bought my Morso I got a significant discount from Lion who had it on special offer -- not that I knew that till I ordered it.

I'll agree with that - it was only by visiting lion that I found I could get a price specially for new businesses - Got a minigraf 44 at 30% off catalogue price, amongst other things. Total savings on what I budgeted for are likely to exceed £2000, including all equipment, mouldings & mountboard.

David · Post by **David** » Fri 21 Sep, 2007 8:25 pm

Hi Johnny9

Just thought I'd confuse the choice I have been using a Fletcher for years and swear by it. Easy to use versatile no problems with reverse bevels.
We bought a second business which had a new Keencut until then I didn't think there was much to choose between them then I tried using it for a few weeks. I did persevere but in the end I sold it and bought another Fletcher. I find the Fletcher better engineered, faster, easier and quicker to set up and has a much better feel. Steel runner and 3 bearings beats aluminium on aluminium. Just my opinion. If you can get to Lion, Simons or Wessex you could try them out.

I'd agree with the cassesse for an underpinner been using the same one for 15 years, CS89, air operated, great bit of kit.

Good luck.

Johnny9 · Post by **Johnny9** » Sat 22 Sep, 2007 9:08 am

Guys,

Thanks for all your help

and the speed too....

I'll do a bit of reasearch on the Fletcher also (cheers David)....