Schedule of Industry Standard Trade Labour Times

[gripper]

After a lifetime in the contracting industry where all estimating is based upon recognised industry trade labour times for undertaking specific tasks of a project, I am surprised that I cannot find such a schedule of recognised times for the framing industry. Likewise I have been unable to find a suitable spreadsheet / database or book incorporating such a schedule of labour times
The nearest formula I have found for estimating is cost of materials x a factor of 3. This I think is a very basic approach and a bit like sucking a price out of thin air without actually measuring the time it takes to carry out a particular task, or indeed costing this factor against your overheads and profit.
Above all, does this factor used in a professional environment provide fairness to the customer as well as provide fore efficiency and a profitable business for the framer ?
You may say use a readily available estimating program, but are these programs also based upon the same labour costing factor x3 or are the tasks actually individually measured. If they are measured then those times should be wholly recognised as standard by the trade for costing and be publicly available.
I would welcome if anyone can point me in the right direction to obtain a spreadsheet / database or book incorporating such a schedule of labour times for the varying tasks.
Many thanks

[GeoSpectrum]

I think you are going to be disappointed. The framing industry is not standardised, there are no fixed recognised rates for tasks. Every framer is different and there are a dozen ways to do the same thing. you may wish to use the search function top right and look through the dozens of pricing threads to get a feel for how to go about it. The x3 model you mention is a very rough starting point. Think about the differing overheads of say a garage framer and a large high street outfit, a framer who only sells on line and a framer who only makes hand finished top end frames. All will have differing pricing strategies, costs and acceptable profit margins.

[Graysalchemy]

We are a small industry so things like that don't exist. At the end of the day as long as I am happy witj my profit and customers are happy with my prices it doesn't really matter if I derive my prices fom a simple mark up or time taken to complete each individual stage.

Also using an industry standard time isn't necessarily a good thing as each of us will have different speeds of working. Today I had to print mount and frame a 1200mm x 800mm picture. I did it in less than 15 minutes as it had got left off an order and was needed to be fitted in hotel 200 miles away by mid afternoon.

[gripper]

Thanks both for you feedback.

The object of recognised trade times serve two purposes. One is to satisfy the customer that they are not being exploited and that the labour quoted is acceptable and two it serves to cost additional works or extras upon a schedule of rates. The labour time summary is then costed out to the business operational costs. This ensures all contractors are pricing on a level playing field.

[GeoSpectrum]

It may work in a standardised industry but not ours. Just out of interest why does it matter? if the customer is happy and the price and the framer is happy with the profit?

[gripper]

Alan I have an estimating system that is probably too comprehensive for the framing industry that presents its data in several different formats. The problem is importing manufacturers data so I have to create the data manually. My problem is assigning labour times to the products which at the moment it is just guesswork.
I could really do with a good framing spreadsheet calculator if you know of any. Other than that a list of labour times would also help greatly.

[David]

I've been in the framing industry for over twenty years and have never come across what you are looking for, l'm sure it doesn't exist. Individuals may have timings for many processes, some pricing programs need timings to calculate the price, but many do not. There is not an industry standand, it wouldn't really be possible or relevant, too many variables.

[Graysalchemy]

The problem with a standard time to complete something is that everyone works at different speeds and equipment varies as well. I can cut 3 or 4 times as many frames with my saw than I can on a morso and I can probably cut a whole sheet of mountboard into mounts on a cmc in under 2 minutes. You really need to know how long it takes you to complete a frame.

With regards to framing programs which use a time element Framiac is very comprehensive in that respect though there is another one i-framer which is due to be launched in the uk which allows for both material only pricing and material and time. However both are commercial subscription based programs.

[gripper]

Many thanks

[pramsay13]

I have to agree with the others here.
I don't think there is such a thing as a standard time it takes to make a frame.
I am not even consistent with making a frame never mind comparing me to someone else.
There are so many variables from frame to frame.
Some examples from today.
2 reframes so I had to take the old frames apart before cutting and joining the new frames.
2 photographs that were already mounted so I only had to cut and join the frames and cut the glass and backing.
1 piece of art that I only had to cut and join a frame.
A football strip that needed a piece of card cut, top stretched onto it, frame cut and joined, spacers made and fixed onto mount, glass and backing cut.

[IFGL]

There are many pos pricing programs to choose from, any of these would help you in your quest.

[Roboframer]

Do you need this information to work out your own pricing for framing and if so have you calculated an hourly rate to divide it in to?

The nearest formula I have found for estimating is cost of materials x a factor of 3

Where did you find this? There is far more than this here on this forum - like this for example (4th post down) ... http://theframersforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... 55&p=40741

The object of recognised trade times serve two purposes. One is to satisfy the customer that they are not being exploited and that the labour quoted is acceptable

I don't quote labour on my order forms and I've never heard of any framer that does - I can add x minutes of time to any order but it won't be itemised, it'll just increase the price ... and I can do a price breakdown too and it still won't be itemised, just every component will be increased.

Knowing how long it takes YOU to carry out tasks is good, sure, and it might be good to compare, to know if you are fast, slow or average and it might not be too difficult to get an industry average per task, but not a standard for customer expectation.
.

[Jamesnkr]

Gripper, why do you want this information?