Fine Art Trade Guild

[Dermot]

Strong commitment isn’t enough on the part of the FATG…..action is what counts…….I've heard all I want to hear about commitment on the part of the FATG……talk is cheap….

Rgs

[SquareFrames]

Hoping that last transmission got through, I will try a real answer.

Dermot,

I read your commenst with some disheart and sadness, and yet with a little titter. All through my time as Branch Master, I was continually asked the same question, and told the same thing, 'Action is what is needed' The Guild do nothing for us'

Aa you are probably aware the Guild they are continually striving to research, develop and promote the art and framing industry. This is done in many ways, by committees and continual meetings, where framers like you and I give up our free time to help the cause. But the thing is, and I cannot stress this enough, the Guild needs feedback and other's opinions, they simply cannot work without this. If you were to tell the Guild (or me) what it is by way of 'Action' you want, maybe something could be done about it. Not good enough to tell me that 'strong commitment isnt enough and action is what counts' tell me what you want. You may have heard all you want to hear about the Guild, but I think, oh dear what I think doesnt matter, but what I will say is this and I will keep reiterating it, if you want something done, dont whinge about it, get up and get it done, and at least back up your statement with hard facts, I gave you the facts and raesonms for being a member.

Steven

[Merlin]

Steven. Thankyou for posting the information.. You are obviously quite passionate about the Guild.. I too believe in belonging to a professional trade organisation. That is why I am a member and took the GCF.
I have on many occassions written to Rosie Sumner and to Annabelle about the services of the Guild and pieces for the ABT. eg.. Many years ago ABT did some superb articles under the heading of 'Framing' and 'Framing Techniques'. These were a God send and welcomed by a lot of people..
My comment in another thread of the FATG being too corporate - NOT commercial - still stands... These helpfull articles for the Retail Framers have disappeared and seems to have been replaced by lovely photographs of Guild Dinners etc etc..
I do take a lot of time (more than the 2 minutes) to inform and educate the customers about the Guild. I have attended the college photographic courses as a guest speaker when they want help on mounting and framing their photographs. But at the same time, I run a retail outlet so cannot go out and about talking to other retail outlets as Rosie has suggested. For one.. my profit from the shop would be lost in travelling expenses.. Cornwall is a large and rural area to cover.. Maybe one reason why we have no Branch Master.. No I am not volunteering.
As stated in my other thread )when I gave numbers of picture framers and only ONE GCF), I await the Directory to see if the number of members have increased or decreased. After the promised tele sales promotion and awareness campaign.
The FATG web site, still only shows one GCF for Cornwall.. so either the site is not being updated or the campaign is not working.
The Guild is doing good work and it must be an uphill struggle trying to get the industry standardised. They must try to reach more of the smaller units to swell their numbers.

[SquareFrames]

Many thanks for your reply. I was heartened to read that at least you have tried to engage the Guild and make the membership work for you. When I took over as Branch Master for here, there hadnt been a meeting for almost 2 years, so I decided to take the bull by the horns and got this Branch off its preverbial arse, sort of speak. Our only problem is that we have to engage speakers from across the water, like Pete Bingham, Dave Woolass, Lyn Hall, Terry Jackman, Martin Harold of Lion and the like, local framers are loathe to talk about what they are doing for fear of telling 'the enemy'. We too are rural, infact the most inhospitable country to travel around, but anyhow that is not a problem for most members, they all mostly make the effort, there are of course members who would not travel to a Branch meeting if it was held on their own premises, but, hey thats life.

As for the ABT, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and had begun a campaign along with the other Branch Masters at our meetings in London to make the changes once again, these are slowly being introduced, but I will stand up for the Guild here, as this last edition of ABT always advertises the fact the Guild dinner and awards evening is taking place. We have vene suggested that supplements be placed inside as it does cost an awful oot of money for 2 or 4 extra pages to be inserted, this idea is also being looked into, so please have a little patience, it will come.

The Guild website, as we all know is not the best, but again things are in hand. Bhavesh has been employed to research and revamp the site and I know from personal experience that he is working his socks off and the site will be fully up and running soon wity all the changes made and updates, etc. This sadly has been neglected a little, due to a few problems in the Guild office, not our fault I know, but one that I know is now addressed and, again, have a little patience, its on its way.

Its good to know that you are a member and a GCF and like me (I hope) proud to be a member of such an organisation, that will in the future, with our help and input be one of the best art and framing organisations to belong to. Obviously, as I stated before the Guild cannot and will not be able to make everyone happy, who in this life can claim to do so?

Speak soon,
Steven+

[Guest]

I was a Guild member for a few years but soon became disillusioned. The causes of this were discussed at some length with Rosie

1. Free Web page on the Guild’s site and hyperlink to your own site
2. Free 24 hour legal advice (business or personal)
3. Free subscription to the award winning Art Business Today (ABT)
4. Free classified adverts in ABT
5. Access to the Information Hotline
6. Invitations to all regional Branch events
7. All Guild published books at discounted prices
8. Discounts on financial services, such as; Insurance, Adverts in Yellow Pages, Telephone Calls, and Discounted rates for credit cards transactions and terminals through, The Bank Of Scotland Merchant Services
9. Discounted entry to the annual Framing Competition
10. DTI discounts for export support at exhibitions world-wide
11. Free entry in the Trade Directory and Free copy (worth over £40)
12. There is also access to 1000’s of prints and publishers, printers, wholesalers, suppliers, specialised services, you name it, its in The Directory

[Merlin]

For Guest.
Unfortunately your message seems incomplete.
You have copied the benefits as listed by Steven in an earlier post.
Now you have said that you have become disillusioned. Can you open up a bit more and explain why please.
After all this is a discussion forum, where we ALL can learn and take part in the pro's and con's of our trade.

[SquareFrames]

Thank you John for you reply, I didnt want to, simply as I might be accused of being petty, but you said it all. As the message stands, just justifies the point I made about people, wnating the Guild to work, but failing to them in what way. We live in hope.

Steven

[Underpinner]

Apologies to all but I have to tell you that the person who "messed up" his attempt to make a comprehensive reply regarding the listed advantages of FATG membership is not far from here!

So this time let's keep it brief: I joined the Guild when I started framing and "hung on in there" for about 4-5 years, hectoring Rosie Sumner and others in the hope of improving the Guild's focus on very small framing businesses. Eventually I became fed up with the overwhelming certainty that within the FATG HQ there was littyle interest in, let alone understanding of, the real needs of businesses such as mine. I concluded that well over £100 annually was a silly price to pay for the odd snippet of useful information from the magazine - which was all I was getting for my money. The only reason I stayed a member for so long was that, having passed the GCF, I felt that I owed it to the Guild to tackle the problems from the inside.

Most of the "advantages" listed previously (in Steven's posting) existed in those days and most were non-essential or simply not good enough. For example, after a year or two of insuring via the Guild I found a much more congenial deal locally. The directory was a credit to the Guild but little use to me. I couldn't care less about competitions (too busy making frames for customers) and have much the same attitude to the dinner-jacketed "social events" (which also occupied far too much space in the magazine).

I did point out as diplomatically as I was able that a less favourable attitude to the big businesses in this industry (especially some of the suppliers whose lack of quality control didn't seem to affect their profits - or their status in the Guild - but played havoc with my costings), and rather more effort on behalf of framers, might well do wonders for FATG recruitment.

The FATG has done a lot of good work for the industry - but which industry?

[Merlin]

John (Underpinner). Thankyou for replying with an honest opinion. As I stated earlier, I do believe in belonging to a professional body. But at £175 ish, it is a lot of money, for not a lot in return.
You actually echo a lot of my thoughts and earlier comments. I too have hectored and I know that at times getting things done can take some time. I am still waiting for the return telephone calls from 2 years ago, and they have been reminded that I am still waiting...
I also agree that a lot of the FATG advantages are now lost, when cheaper and better services are available elsewhere.
It all comes back to the term that the FATG are 'corporate', one of the main reasons given that many of my local framers have not joined.
I have also given notice that if the small framers do not come into the sights of the Guild within this next subsciption year. Then they will lose me.
It would be good to invite Rosie Sumner to reply on this forum to these comments!!!!!!!!

[SquareFrames]

I will speak to and invite Rosie to answer some of the comments that have been made so far. I have also noted the comments re 'Corporate' and will be bringing this up at the next meeting in London at the end of March, at both the Branch Master's meeting and the Full Court. As a small independand framer myself, I personally do not agree with this statement, but it would be good to hear other's views on this, and especially Rosie's.

I am also sending the FATG Executive Committee these comments, it would be good to hear their point of view, and maybe get comments from them, the framers, gallery owners, suppliers, etc. that are the heart of the FATG. I will in turn report any comments made to me, or better still, they can answer for themselves. (If John doesnt mind my inviting other framers to join in the forum)???

Steven

[John]

The more the merrier Stephen.

Though I'm not sure what the FATG response will be.

In June last year, when I first had the idea for this forum, I sent them an email inviting them to inform the members that this new resource was available. I thought that framers would be interested in availing themselves of the opportunity for chewing the fat (or fatg as it turns out!). However, the Guild obviously thought otherwise.

I never did get reply of any kind, so I don't know what they were thinking when they decided that their members should be kept in the dark. I can only assume that either they believed that this would be of no benefit to framers, or that perhaps they see themselves as the last line of defence between their members, and the mighty EstLite Corporation.

JR

[Merlin]

I agree John, the more framers we get on this site the merrier.
However, I am not suprised at the response of the Guild. I did email and ask what the Guild thought of the American CPF, as at one stage a comment was made on The Grumble that the UK GCF was not as comprehensive. The reply that came back from Rosie Sumner, was that she had heard that the Grumble was spreading a lot of misinformation to its members. I quite harshly disagreed with this. To which the reply was.. Oh well they must have got their act together then... Plus Rosie had at that time not even then looked at the Grumble..

I did meet Rosie at the NEC in Spring last year and posed the question about whether the Guild could do something along the lines of a UK forum... Oh yes we are, in fact Bhavish (sp) is working on it and will be contacting you very shortly. Still waiting for that contact.

Thankfully, you have taken the Bull by the horns and acted. I certainly am telling as many people as I meet that you are here. It will take time, but I do hope that the Guild through ABT will advertise for you.

No benefit to the framers indeed !!!!! just look at the compliments that the Grumble get. As long as we are sensible, open and honest then we/you will succeed. With or without the help of the Guild

[markw]

The benefits of joining the FATG may well be positive if you are selling to the members - positive to galleries that need to be able to define a standard for reproduction on prints - but i am unconvinced of the real benefit for the small framing business.
I joined FATG 10 years ago - and stopped after 6 years - rejoining this year basically because i wanted to see a strong informed group of framers within my area who could work together to raise standards - the first initiative of the group was to hold a local GCF testing session - and quite a few framers, myself included took the test. I am sure that the same group of people could organise the same events, speakers etc for far better value outside the FATG - £175 is a lot of money for a window sticker, a magazine and trade directory - most of the other benefits are either not applicable to the smaller business or can often be purchased cheaper (insurance being a good example). I do think the GCF is positive for the industry but would love to see some standards applied to the more practical aspects of the business. - mouldings minimum rebate depth, quality assurance - Guild branded packaging - practicle research into modern alternatives to frame finishing - (not the present view - that s how its always been done)
Far more PR from the guild - positive practical help with branding a positive image - and yes its been said by many in this forum - less money spent on the glitterati - it would be fascinating to see a breakdown of who the guild gets its money from - and who the main benefactors are - we might understand then why it costs so much.
In conclusion I think the GCF is important to the industry but it needs to relate to the majority of its mebers needs.

[Ardfinnan]

I have been reading your comments with interest, gentlemen. I have coughed up my subscription again this year, but with some resevations. £175 is quite a chunk. I was very suprised to find that the 'benefits' of being a Guild member do not always live up to expectations. Insurance being one particularly thorny one. The main reason I stay is for the contacts I have made. I find the directory useful for tracking down other services then I can provide myself. I really am a very small business, just providing a framing and dry mounting service. I am also comparatively new and so am always learning. I could do with more back up for framing and less emphasis on the print side, or at least a more balanced appraoch. Less assumption of knowledge as well. Is this fair comment?

[SquareFrames]

re John's Cooments.

I would like to make my own personal position clear. I made the posting re: the benefits of being a memebr of the FATG, in response to other postings that I had read with regard GCF and some mention of FATG. I, in no way am representing or being a spokesman for the FATG at this time, all I am simply stating is what I think is a fair and relevant argument for being a member. This is jo way has been sanctioned by Rosie, the Executibe or the Court, I am stating my own case.

Having said that, I have been unable to get in contact with Rosie, from the Guild, but I have been in direct contact with 2 members of the Executive over the weekend and have had a conversation with them with the hope that Rosie can be persuaded to come onto this forum and speak, and let us ALL know what is happening. I will also be enmailing her and giving her a brief outline of some of the comments, and I will let her decide what she has to do. I think she knows?

In any case it is great to have such an open and frank discussion, and something that is needed and long overdue.

With regards John's comment. I have been a member of FATG for quite some years and I did not know about any forum, or that the FATG had been invited to participate. Why? I have no idea, but I would like to find out, and will be asking questions over the next couple of days, and also demanding answers. I too suffer and have suffered in the past form the 'Non returtned phone call syndrome', but unlike most members, I as a member of the Court, had other resourses open to me to get the answers I required.

I look forward to more healthy debate.

Steven

[Max R.]

I've read with interest some of the passionate responses to the subject of FATG membership from people who obviously care about the industry they are part of. I have been a member of the FATG for many years and although it is not perfect, the guild can only be as good as its members allow it to be. I believe that it is better to be a member and try to change things from the inside if the feeling is that things are wrong. As a branch master and now an executive member, I am fully aware of apathy from certain members and there is always going to be that attitude from certain members who just want the FATG sticker for the window and the directory. "What does the Guild do for me?" Well any good networker will tell you, that you will only get out of something relative to what you are prepared to put in. So GCF might not be perfect, but it is at least an attempt by the industry's trade association to set some kind of standards. OK, so sometimes it appears that the Guild is more interested in catering for the bigger boys in the industry and ignoring the small outlets. Well, we have a network of branches and if individuals would be more willing to get off their backsides and support them, the guild would work a heck of a lot more representative for everyone. I can't speak for other members of the board at the guild. They are perfectly able to talk for themselves, but I would say that if the guild is used properly, it gives excellent value for money, but you have to make it work for you. I am a small gallery owner myself, as I've mentioned, the guild isn't perfect, but I'd rather try to make it better from the inside rather then grumble from the outside.
Good luck with this forum.
Max R.

[markw]

I hear through the grapevine that this site was discussed at this weeks FATG executive meeting. I hope that some of the critical points made here were taken on board. It would seem that the news of a uk based forum is starting to spread - lively debate at this level can only be good news for us all - the FATG management will benefit enormously if they listen to the views of individual framers -
Having been to a very lively Cotswolds Branch meeting I am heartened that many businesses want to be part of a representitive Guild - that the guild is listening and changing. I am always amazed by the number of people who have worked in this business for decades - they have succeded in difficult times - and most of them without any contact with the FATG, but its a fact that all businesses are being forced by their customers and competition to raise standards, not only of what they produce, but in the way they market the product. Like it or not we need a proffesional body to maintain a good public profile for the art and framing business. For my part I would rather be inside working to improve the guild - So back to the critical points - see earlier posting -

[SquareFrames]

MarkW...

Yes, this was discussed at all 3 levels of the FATG, from Executive level, Court level and Branch Masters level, on Thursday 25th March and as always they were lively debates, and again at the Artists Committee on Friday 26th. So no shortage of discussion. Once the minutes of the meetings have been produced, I will be able to divulge some of the information on the next steps on the future, nedless to say its interesting and exciting, and yet again reiterate the reasons for being and staying members of FATG. By the way, has anyone seen FATG's 2 page article in A&I (Artists & Illustrated), makes for some interesting reading.

Steven

[John]

Hi Steven,

Thanks for getting back to us and filling us in with the latest, it is very much appreciated.

John

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

As I promised, I will keep you all informed as to the FATG and what its up to and what it has planned.

One thing is for sure, and all my wife has to do is pick a date for the first NEW 'GCF Refresher Courses' to be held in Northern Ireland. These will be held on a yearly or 2 yearly basis (I am not too sure at the moment), but she will be contacting every GCF in N.I. within the next couple of weeks. There is a format to follow and someone will be over form England to help me go through all what is required.
The courses are open to all GCF's whether members of FATG or not, and is a one day course. We are thinking at the moment of a Sunday, anyone any objections?? Let us know....SOON

Talk soon,

Steven