Supplier practices, do they all do it ?

[Rainbow]

Cost a job for what you consume, not what ends up in the frame.

And that's precisely the problem with over-supplies. You quote the customer based on a full length of 3m, because as you say, even if the job only needs 2.5m, you can't do anything with the leftover 0.5m. So if the distributor sends you two lengths of 2.2m, that's 1.4m wastage which you haven't included in your quote to the customer. If you're not VAT registered, you've to stand the cost of the VAT as well. It's very dispiriting to have your expected profit reduced in this way

[Steve N]

Just turn the left over bits into readymade frames, we have a box where we pop 6"x6" frames in, sell them for a fiver, uses up all the left over bits of glass and backing,
So cut the moulding for the job, then as you have the underpinner set up, cut and join R/M, pop in a box, then when cutting the glass for the weeks order, turn any offcuts into the glass for the 6"x6" (even have a template to cut these ), pop in a box for later, same with the backing, then when all the week's work is done bang out some R/M's, job done

[Jamesnkr]

How many do you make/shift per week, Steve?

[prospero]

And that's precisely the problem with over-supplies. You quote the customer based on a full length of 3m, because as you say, even if the job only needs 2.5m, you can't do anything with the leftover 0.5m. So if the distributor sends you two lengths of 2.2m, that's 1.4m wastage which you haven't included in your quote to the customer. If you're not VAT registered, you've to stand the cost of the VAT as well. It's very dispiriting to have your expected profit reduced in this way

If you are ordering 'on the fly' the that counts as a special order. It's not a moulding that you keep in stock. As you say, this
can work out pricey to you and you need to compensate for this. There is also the admin to consider: you have to sit down
and spend time ordering it.

As for Steve's ready mades, I've made 100s of them and still got most of them. This may work out great if you have the infrastructure
to push them but otherwise you just got a lot of spare frames under your feet. All depends on the structure of your business.

[Steve N]

Jamesnkr wrote
"How many do you make/shift per week, Steve?"

Sorry James can't give you a figure, when the box in the shop is empty, we put together all the parts and fill the box, but this is done when we have a quite/slow time, which is why the box is nearly empty

It dones't take much time when you are cutting moulding for a custom job, to just set the morso to 6" and cut 4 sides, have the underpinner set up to do the custom job, so it's hardly any time just to pin the R/M and just pop it in a box under the bench for when we have time to assemble them, and as I said the same goes for the glass, all the sheet material used in these frames are what we consider to be waste , also bare in mind that we sell the same size frames online, just a case when the order comes in, pick up the backing board, glass, mount, and the frame , clean the glass, assemble, fire 8 bendy tabs in , job done

[Not your average framer]

I also make up some RMF's every now and then using left over waste materials. Generally small frames do generate much money, so I tend to be a bit picky, depending on whether I think the moulding is likely to appeal to the customers, or not. Don't forget a lot of your sales of small RMF's will be impulse sales and you may have to price then to compete with other locally available frames.

I don't generally make all that much out of smaller frames, it's just how things are! However, larger frames are a better proposition and there is a much more sensible level of profit available from selling these. It really does help a lot to be offering nice looking mouldings as well. The smallest sizes of glass and backing board that I bother to keep are 6" x 8"

Unfortunately I don't do very well with 6" x 8" frames, but I know that others manage to do better than myself with smaller frames, so there's a bit of trial and error to find out what works out for your own location and business. Be careful about how cheap you are prepared to sell smaller frames for, because customers also relate price with quality and may resist buying anything which seems be too cheap to be any good.

Once in a while, we do a car boot to clear out dead stock. It's not particularly profitable, but mostly for a bit of amusement. Not many people want to pay much more than 50p for really small frames and I think £5 is probably as much as you can get for anything larger. I think about the most we've come away with is probably between £40 and £50, but at least it's more worthwhile than putting your dead stock into the dumpster.

[poliopete]

Judging by the helpful replies to you question the answer appears to be "yes". I agree with the opinions that receiving extra moulding overcomes the problem of dings, flaws, matching up lengths and measuring/cutting mistakes

I do not stock much in the way of FF mouldings and often sell these from a catalogue. This gives me the option of "chop" or buying lengths.

If the customers choice has promise I buy extra for stock. One of the first things to do with some of this extra is to make a larger size chevron. Some of the more successful framers on TFF, who show pictures of their shop/premises, often display more generous chevrons than can be made from the skimpy 12" sample lengths normally supplied. IMHO these larger chev's make a much better display. Also, I include 30% wastage in my pricing.

I personally would never give up on a supplier because of this practise. Arqadia are an excellent well established company who not only supports the framing industry but also have an excellent range of mouldings and mount board. And lets not forget their 4Walls magazine

[coxsox]

Quick update, so spoke to my rep and the advice is to simply place the order and then ask them to check lengths before paying. They can generally ask the guys in the warehouse to view stock and advise. So now I know the 'quirks of the system' and how to order...hopefully. I order in bulk/boxes anyway and only for my own use so any savings I can make benefit me.

I did discover though after ordering a couple of single other moulding lengths to test that sometimes these are only in packs of two, wasn't informed of this, just sent and charged..... good job they weren't expensive ones. Also found out about the possible batch differences, wondered why one moulding felt heavier than the other.....

oh well, onwards and upwards.......

[prospero]

You learn as you go along. Sometimes you have to pay to learn.

When I started off buying mouldings and stuff from trade suppliers they were generally a bit iffy about supplying unless
you could prove you were a 'proper' business. You had to supply references from other people you did business with and
sometimes establish a credit account. Some would not even deal with you at all if they had another account within a certain
distance of you. Makes it very difficult when starting out because you don't have a 'track record'. Fortunately there were a few
helpful reps who knew a few helpful workarounds.

Over the years these 'rules' have relaxed somewhat. Once one supplier decided they were prepared to split packs then the
others had no choice but to follow suit.

[artframer]

I'm on the same steep learning curve, though I'm feeling unfazed (perhaps it's the aspirins) by receiving more than I ordered. I'm learning and waste is part of that in my head.

It is worth checking and noting which mouldings come in shorter lengths. I find, for example, with wessex, some obeche mouldings tend to generally be 2.4m lengths and some 3m. This means that with 1 I use a lot of, I always assume 2.4 and then order by length over the phone rather than metres.

I've not ordered much, but so far I've had 3 lengths of 3 Obeche mouldings. Moulding A = 3 x 3.06m, moulding B = 3 x 2.4m and moulding C = 3 x 2.8m. What I don't know is whether this indicates Obeche is fairly consistent and it depends on, say, the complexity and thickness of the moulding as to what length can be milled in any one go.... OR whether the next time I order, they'll have a different batch in which will be a different length - so moulding A won't be 3.06m, etc. When I order some more, I'll find out... I think.

I have concluded I shouldn't order based on 5s. I ordered 10m and got 12 (4 x 3m) which means another extra 2m wastage over what I accounted for. I'm hoping I'll get another decent size frame out of it.

I totally get why the oak I've had is in all sorts of length.

It's great learning new skills...

[BeccaB]

im so glad im not the only one who was left questioning their intelligence over moulding ordering!! its definitely been a bit eye opening working in this industry, and nothing like what im used from previous jobs in ordering for hotels and restaurants! My supplier not only sends me randoms amounts, not relating to what i've ordered but the prices are advertised per meter, they take my order in metres yet apparently send the order and invoice in feet?

[Steve N]

You all should take it up with the mills that make the moulding, not the suppliers, they can only supply in lengths they have in stock, so if you order 10 mts but they only have 3mt lengths then they will send you 4 x 3mt lengths, that's not 2 mts waste, that's 2mts you don't have to order in again, slap it around a mirror and sell it for 40 quid. what do you want the suppliers to do, send 3x 3mt lengths and cut 1 mt off another length so you just get the 10mts. As I said before, if you were buying 10 years ago, you only could buy by the pack from most suppliers, so that could be 2, 4 ,6 or 8 lengths to a pack, think yourselves lucky most of our suppliers are now willing to split the packs

Rant over

[poliopete]

artframer wrote "I'm on a steep learning curve, though I'm feeling unfazed (perhaps it's the aspirins) by receiving more than I ordered"

One thing to remember when buying "chop" is that you/anyone are paying for the waste that the supplier gets to keep where as buying lengths the waste is yours to use any way you can. Also, if there are minor defects dings or marks you can work around them when cutting the rims

Peter

[Rainbow]

... the prices are advertised per meter, they take my order in metres yet apparently send the order and invoice in feet?

Yes I get this too - it's all part of life's rich tapestry in the framing industry isn't it!

PS. Welcome to the forum, BeccaB