FrameCo Benchmaster

[poliopete]

artframer, your conclusions sound like a good plan

It's obvious you are determined to make frame making a success and this forum is a great and unique resource in achieving this as framing courses and books can be.

Many of us older framers started joining our frames by "side pinning". Not only is this method the best solution for certain frames, hand finished/painted, stacked and hard woods it's very very satisfying. After all, who doesn't like knocking nails in to a piece of wood It's a useful technique to fall back on.

Keep asking the questions. Some replies can be a little curt but most replies are generous and helpfully.

Very good luck.

Peter

[Not your average framer]

It does need to be said that some specific oak mouldings are consistently easy to join because the oak is quite soft, but it's not true of all oak mouldings. I don't know why this is so, but I guess some of this may depend on a particular species of oak, or perhaps the climate where the oak comes from.

I buy an oak moulding that you won't find in your suppliers catalogues which is made for a volume framer, it is a private arrangement that I get this moulding. It's not only nice oak, but consistently quite soft as well. There may be other oak mouldings like this, but it would be trial and error to find other consistently soft oak mouldings.

[Steve N]

Lion are being relistic about what the hobby underpinner can do, most probably you will be purchasing from them, if the tool does not live up to your expectations, Lion would be the people you would mostly contact regrading the problem first, so if they say it's not suitable for hard wood, don't use it on hard wood. Lion are being honest with you from the start, they want you to become a long term customer of theirs, they are thinking of the long term, I would listen to the advise that given inthe thread.

[Not your average framer]

I helped a friend get started with some secondhand kit and he got a manual underpinner for only £50 and some of the older manual underpinners don't require much space at all. This could still be the right move for you!

There was a company called "Origin Framing Supplies" in Croydon who sold a really compact basic pedal operated under pinner made by Dave Thope, which screwed onto the end of a bench and they sold crazy quantities of these underpinners in basic start up kits for framers. There's still quite a lot of these underpinners still around. They were really cheap when they were new, so a secondhand one should be cheap as chips.

This looks like one here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Framers-corn ... 0005.m1851

And here's a CS-79 that looks like it might go for the right price:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/framing-unde ... Sw6WFZ~ztY

Or how about an old Euro underpinner:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Picture-Fram ... 2742094621

Perhaps you can find a bit of space somewhere for something like one of these?

[prospero]

This would be a good thing if they still made them.

vice002.jpg (116.95 KiB) Viewed 12641 times

I got mine in a sale, but maybe there's a few still floating about. I do use it now and then.

[artframer]

Perhaps you can find a bit of space somewhere for something like one of these?

Lets put it this way: coming up with some ingenius, perhaps unorthodox way of either increasing my space or reorganising it (perhaps two tier working bunk bed stylie ) to get this one piece of kit, the underpinner, in to it has become my priority.

...most replies are generous and helpful

The fact I actually have a plan and way forward mapped out... beyond "make some frames" is entirely down to that generosity and helpfulness. Much respect to you, ladies and gents.

[grahamdown]

Why not look at an oak veneered moulding - problem solved?

[Jamesnkr]

Why not look at an oak veneered moulding - problem solved?

Because it's hideous?

[Glimpse]

Because it's hideous?

It's perfectly acceptable for most of my customers - I've never had a customer refuse a veneer moulding insisting I use a solid hardwood.

I thought this forum had moved away from self-agrandising know-it-alls with their airs of superiority pouring scourn on those whose methods they deem to be beneath them.

The simple fact of the matter is that framing pictures isn't rocket science - it's a very simple process. And most of us do it as a business, and the sole purpose of a business is to make profit. The overwhelming majority of customers want something that looks lovely, is well made and is affordable. You can blow smoke up your own backside by convincing yourself that your hand-finished hardwood frames are somehow better that everyone elses, but in reality, they aren't. They do the same job.

My advice would be to pitch your business at the widest possible and most profitable market. Use veneers, use factory finished, use Polcore if that's what the customer wants.

Sure, offer hand-finished if it solves a customer's problem, but 99.9% of the time, you'll find it doesn't.

[prospero]

That's good advice Gimpse. But not everybody has the same aspirations.

[artframer]

That's good advice Gimpse. But not everybody has the same aspirations.

I agree 100% with that, Prospero, on both counts. I'm only aiming at 'part' of the market. I hope one that will provide me with profit enough to buy an underpinner in the not too distant future, and a holiday in Cleethorpes - but we'll see. The customers in my part of the market do want/prefer solid oak - they say so. The framing market as a whole has a lot of different customer segments (get me with my business head on) so plenty of scope for confusion in here (FF), but importantly: lots of opportunity for us all to make a profit in our different ways

[Jamesnkr]

Wow that was a diatribe Glimpse, no need to take it personally. You certainly come across as a very unpleasant individual.

Anyway, with regard to your final sentence, *you* find it doesn't. Not *me*.

Sure, offer hand-finished if it solves a customer's problem, but 99.9% of the time, you'll find it doesn't.

Oak veneer is hideous and I have no intention of ever going near it. OP wants to offer solid oak, don't waste his time and money by suggesting veneer.

[Glimpse]

But not everybody has the same aspirations.

Very true Prospero, but aspirations don't pay the mortgage!My advice to anyone starting out in this business would be to learn the market first, rather than trying to bully a resistant market into a narrow selection of products that you 'aspire' to make.

Once you understand what the market needs, then you'll know how and where to market more specialist products.

You certainly come across as a very unpleasant individual.

Have you read your posts recently James? You seem to come here just to argue, belittle people and brag about how wonderful you are!

The customers in my part of the market do want/prefer solid oak - they say so.

Just out of interest Artframer, and I'm certainly not disputing what you say, but what part of the market are you working in? My shop is in a fairly typical, reasonably affluent market town, and I've never really come across anyone who specifically wants solid oak. I'd say at least half of my customers aren't even regular framing services buyers, so they come in with a very open mind as to what is available...

[Jamesnkr]

You brag about how wonderful you are!

Capture1.JPG (11.35 KiB) Viewed 12566 times

[artframer]

...what part of the market are you working in?

I'll accept the question as a genuine question, rather than one requiring me to justify my business model.

I don't have a shop on the high street, so not that market.

Entirely word-of-mouth. A very specific buyer who has very specific ideas, though mostly about colour and finish - they're surprisingly uniform in the styles they want, so not exotic contrary to the stereotype that is conjured up by the word: 'artist'. They do take a lot of negotiating with, but if approached right, do seem to be (so far) a profitable activity. There are different levels of artist of course, including some I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, so it'll be best to take that on board before launching into any generalisations about artists.

The only reason I started this whole discussion is because several customers have asked for solid oak specifically. One artist, when asked why 'solid', said it takes the knocks better, where they're constantly having to get other frames repaired - sounded business savvy to me.

Anyhow, must crack-on...

[vintage frames]

The biggest lie I often hear from many business spokesmen is "We always listen to our customers". Apart from being very condescending, this reduces the retail offer to the usual bland magnolia sludge available on many high streets. All the best retailers set out to LEAD their customers with new ideas and better design or to put it another way - something to aspire to.
Giving the customer what they want - reclining sofas, slatted blinds, upvc replacement windows and doors, factory made mouldings and M&S clothing!

[Jamesnkr]

One artist, when asked why 'solid', said it takes the knocks better, where they're constantly having to get other frames repaired - sounded business savvy to me.

It's not your problem, it's the artist's, but something to bear in mind is that oak, of course, is probably not repairable if dinged (though of course they're right that it's less likely to get dinged in the first place); painted frames however always can be repaired - bit of polyfilla and some more paint.

[Glimpse]

I'll accept the question as a genuine question, rather than one requiring me to justify my business model.

Thanks for the reply, and apologies if my question came across as asking you to justify your business - my intention was completely the opposite, but I guess that's one of the pitfalls of using written text rather thn a face to face conversation!

I was genuinely interested in the type of customer you have, as it sounds quite different to my customer base, and I'm interested to know whether the reasons are geographical, demographical or simply because your skill set has already given you a very specific customer base.

So apologies if it came across as condescending, and thanks again for answering in the spirit it was intended.

[artframer]

apologies if my question came across as asking you to justify your business ... So apologies if it came across as condescending, and thanks again for answering in the spirit it was intended.

No need to apologise. I'm getting the feeling my business model is a little unusual, so have had to explain things a few times. I'm cool, just don't want to get drawn into a conversation that, whatever the intention, ends up there. Just had some amusing banter with a delivery driver - balance is restored.

It's not your problem, it's the artist's, but something to bear in mind is that oak, of course, is probably not repairable if dinged (though of course they're right that it's less likely to get dinged in the first place)...

Yes, James, I know that and did explain oak would not be so repairable to the customer. They didn't want painted and they didn't want veneer - they wanted 'wood' and liked oak. They wanted what they thought was the right solution to the problem they thought they had and I couldn't think up a fourth (not painted, not veneered, not metal).

The biggest lie I often hear from many business spokesmen is "We always listen to our customers". Apart from being very condescending, this reduces the retail offer to the usual bland magnolia sludge available on many high streets. All the best retailers set out to LEAD their customers with new ideas and better design or to put it another way - something to aspire to.

Interesting view of things Vintage Frames. Many artists want white: limed, painted and limed or simply painted. I do have conversations with them about this (and other things). As I said... there's a great deal of negotiation - lets say discussion - involved. The complexity is that the artists are selling to others and often through galleries so there's a gravitation toward the 'safe' sellable 'bland magnolia'. Not sure who is driving the '50 shades of white' thing. I'm rapidly building a library of alternative finishes/colours chevrons, I know that. I try to help the customer 'see' an alternative because they can't imagine it.

[Glimpse]

Interesting view of things Vintage Frames.

"Interesting" is oen way of describing it... "Idealistic drivel" is another...

Some people need to remember that they're just picture framers. If an artist wants a specific style of moulding, who are we to tell them they want something else? THEY are the artist, it is THEIR creation. They are entitled to choose how it is displayed, and whilst we can share our experience and show a few options, it's arrogant to think we have some sort of superior knowledge to them!