Glue ?

The Crofter · Post by **The Crofter** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 5:52 pm

I have only encountered a few occasions when I have had to glue the moulding as well as underpin. This was necessary for a very thin moulding and and also on a deep rebate when framing a football shirt. I found the wedges would not close the front of the moulding.

Can I ask if other people uses glue as a matter of course ?.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 5:57 pm

I glue and pin mitres as standard.

Mary Case GCF · Post by **Mary Case GCF** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 6:07 pm

glue and pin as standard, we see a lot of reworks that have not had glue, and the weight of the glass has pushed out the bottom pins.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 6:09 pm

Always glue here, too.

The trouble with pins only is that over time they may corrode, or flex in the heat/cold - in a few years the mitres may open.

Post by **prospero** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 6:18 pm

I have always subscribed to the veiw that the nails (V or otherwise) are only there to hold the joints tight together while the glue sets. The main strength is in the glue. Given a choice I would rather do without the nails than the glue. Wood will expand /contract with atmospheric conditions and the joints will eventually start to gap with no glue.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 7:07 pm

Glue and pin everytime.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 7:51 pm

Always glue every joint as that's what holds it together. The vee nails are the re-inforcement, like steel in concrete!.

Can I ask why you decided not to use glue? Was this something that someone taught you or was it a personal assumption?

The Crofter · Post by **The Crofter** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 8:20 pm

Thanks for the feedback !.

It was never a concious decision not to use glue as I was always impressed with the strength obtained from just wedges and just thought it was unnecessary.

In the interests of "getting the job right" I will change my approach and start using glue. I am doing my best to offer a high quality service, something that I know has not been available from two other local framers who have left the trade to do other things. This now makes me one of the few framers in Sutherland (Scotland) so I need to build a reputation for good work. I am sure you folks will also be pleased to hear I have ditched mdf in favour of Artbak - this is as a result of wading through the many post on this forum.

So maybe the direction of this post should shift to which glue should I use for general purpose work ?.

Also do I have to worry about glue on the underpinner ?.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 8:29 pm

Use any good quality wood glue. Lion's woodbond is good if you trade with them. With the underpinner, just wipe over with a damp soft cloth.

Give artbak conservation a try too - it cuts very cleanly, whereas the standard stuff gets fluffy edges with all but brand new blades. It helps reduce the chances of dust getting between glass & mount.

absolute framing · Post by **absolute framing** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 8:39 pm

I use Resin W which is available from any hardware.
Any joinery grade PVA wood glue should do the trick.

Mary Case GCF · Post by **Mary Case GCF** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 8:41 pm

Give artbak conservation a try too - it cuts very cleanly, whereas the standard stuff gets fluffy edges with all but brand new blades. It helps reduce the chances of dust getting between glass & mount.

I'm with Steve on this one. It cuts really well and I don't find it blunts my blades on the System 4000 as quickly as the standard stuff does. In addition I find it doesn't buckle like the standard one, as well as being better from a conservation point of view.

Like Steve I always glue in addition to wedges Wood glue is a water-based PVA type glue and wipes off easily. You only need a few spots on one side of each join.If you get any on your frame, it wipes off easily with a damp cloth, no need for solvents.

absolute framing · Post by **absolute framing** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 8:45 pm

Hi Mary,

Does the system 400 have MDF cutting head?

My fletcher has a MDF head which i use for cutting the Art-Bak rather than the standard blade.

The Crofter · Post by **The Crofter** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 9:00 pm

I have been using Artbak conservation and Artbak Aqua. I like the white face on the Aqua which saves using a white barrier sheet.

Not your average framer · Sat 09 Feb, 2008 9:06 pm

Hi Steven,

Yes it does. It will not only cut Art Bak and Corri Cor, but it can be used to cut mountboard to size if you have to. Not ideal, but it will do it. Some framers use the MDF wheels to cut Art Bak or Corri Cor to save wear on the normal blade which they then only use for sizing mountboard.

Just in case you are wondering, the MDF wheels are cr*p for cutting 3mm foamboard. I tried it on some scrap the other day just to see what happens. The wheels need to revolve to produce a good cut and this does not happen with foamboard.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 9:07 pm

The Crofter wrote: am sure you folks will also be pleased to hear I have ditched mdf in favour of Artbak - this is as a result of wading through the many post on this forum.

This is one of the best decisions you have made as a framer. Whatever 'Artbak' is, it's got to be better than MDF!

Coroplast or whatever it's called in your country is also excellent and it's preservation quality. These days it's quite inexpensive to use preservation standard backings!

The Crofter wrote:Also do I have to worry about glue on the underpinner ?.

PVA is excellent and all I do is have a small scrap of fabric, dampened with water that I use to remove excess glue from joints and from the machine. Once a week use another small piece of fabric dampened with air tool oil and smear a light coating of oil on all the exposed metal on your machine to prevent rust.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 10:06 pm

For dried glue on the underpinner table/bed/whatever the correct term is -scrape it off with a used mountcutter/stanley blade.

For the absolute best adhesion 'size' all mitres with wood glue by rubbing a film of it over the whole face - let it go off, add fresh glue and pin.

Not your average framer · Sat 09 Feb, 2008 11:06 pm

osgood wrote:Coroplast or whatever it's called in your country is also excellent and it's preservation quality. These days it's quite inexpensive to use preservation standard backings!

In the UK Coroplast is available, but is not a easy to get as Correx, which uptil now I have bought from a local packaging company in the 4mm thickness.

Lion who were already supplying it in the 3mm thickness, have just started supplying the 4mm thickness too and quite a bit cheaper than my existing supplier. I use it for situations where a waterproof backing board is required.

Waterproof and so called "water-resistant" backing boards are not the same thing! Correx is waterproof, the Water-resistant ones are not!

There is a slight problem finding a suitable waterproof tape to stick to Correx. I use duct tape, people can see what it is, but at least it does a good job!

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 09 Feb, 2008 11:38 pm

Roboframer wrote:For dried glue on the underpinner table/bed/whatever the correct term is -scrape it off with a used mountcutter/stanley blade.

I would warn against this as it will wear away a tiny amount of metal each time and in about 4 or 5 years you will wonder why your joints aren't as good as they should be. I speak from experience!
Just use a dampened cloth. If the glue is dry leave the damp cloth on for about 15 minutes and it will soften.

Mary Case GCF · Post by **Mary Case GCF** » Sun 10 Feb, 2008 12:24 am

Does the system 400 have MDF cutting head?

My fletcher has a MDF head which i use for cutting the Art-Bak rather than the standard blade.

Yes it does, but I prefer to use the blade. my MDF head is all but redundant now as I only rarely and if absolutely necessary use MDF. The blade on the turret gives a cleaner cut I think

MITREMAN · Post by **MITREMAN** » Tue 19 Feb, 2008 1:54 pm

The Crofter wrote:I have only encountered a few occasions when I have had to glue the moulding as well as underpin. This was necessary for a very thin moulding and and also on a deep rebate when framing a football shirt. I found the wedges would not close the front of the moulding.

Can I ask if other people uses glue as a matter of course ?.

"A good quality PVA woodglue is a must for any frame"

On the profiles you have trouble with try changing wedge size as well as position, try using diffrent bungs or a trangle pad of 3/8 ply to distribute the force. If you still have trouble add a panel pin to the top corner pre-drill first with the same size nail in the chuck of your drill after cutting the head off ( Don't forget the glue and don't handle the frame for at least 20 minutes before you assemble this will allow it to hardern.
If that fails,or you don't want to nail send a few chopped corners samples to Framers equipment where Peter will get the best joint position for you.
You will find there details at www.framersequipment.co.uk.
Good glueing
MITREMAN

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