Pricing POS

[markw]

How do you price jobs? By definition if you are reading this you are computer literate. Do you use a table - work it all out long hand? Use a programme such as EST? Have you gone one step further and use a programme such as "picture it first" to design the frame with your customer.

I am giving a talk about frame pricing next week for the Cotswold branch of the FATG - an insight to how other framers price would be very helpful.

personally i use EST - have done so through countless versions for years - Before EST I used a very simple spreadsheet programme but soon realised that i was missing out on some elements of cost. I firmly believe that the customer wants to know how much its going to cost very early on in the buying process and the last thing she needs is me faffing around with bits of paper and nearish quotes. few key strokes - slight buzz of the printer and customer has an impressively presented printout detailing exactly what they are going to pay - what they will get - and when they will get it - no argument.

Having noticed a very sparse period of posting here I presume everyones busy at the moment? Put a few minutes aside and tell me how you do it and what you use - Thanks

[Framing Norah]

I also use EstLite Mark, have done since it was a DOS program. Remember DOS?

Before that I used a spreadsheet to create a table of prices, which was a bit cumbersome and, at times, could be a bit hit or miss. It never occurred to me to have a computer on the counter; at that time it was too big an investment to have tied up as a dedicated frame pricer.

Now, how things have changed, our POS computer has two printers, one for frame pricing dockets and the other capable of producing good quality output for photo restoration jobs. It has a broadband Internet connection and is networked with the workshop computer. EstLite allows it to link to an Epson till receipt printer and cash drawer, which I bought off eBay for £40. The program records all transactions as they happen and the sales data is exported to the cashbook journal at the end of each week. I just can't imagine running the business without a point of sale computer.

I almost forgot, In addition to doing all this, for 8 hours a day the computer is happily playing a random selection of music in the background from our database of over 3000 of our favourite tracks that are stored on its hard drive.

I agree with you Mark, A pricing program is a great aid in the customer/framer relationship. It frees the framer to concentrate on assisting the customer with his framing design, and allows the customer to be informed at every stage, of the pricing implications of the various options. And there seems to be some sort of in-built acceptance of computer generated prices.

[SquareFrames]

Hi folks,

I use another computer pricing programme, and I agree with FN that there is an acceptance at the price it throws up. Customers think that computers dont lie.

If I was you Markw, I would take along (if possible) my computer and show the programmke working. May also help John with some sales. Ask John for a 'deal' for buying on the evening, I am sure he will only be too willing to help. Even better, why not ask him to aid you, bring him over! I am sure he'd love a wee trip out of wet, damp Belfast.

Many years ago my first pricing was very basic, and was dictated by my suppliers's words of wisdom. 'If it cost you £10 to make, charge £20' Then in the real world of rent, rates, electricity, etc. that just wasnt working, so then I used the system if it cost me £10 to make, I would charge, depneding on the moulding, at least 5-8 times. Thank god for computer programmes, and to be honest, the programme brought my prices down.

I havent seen a chart for pricing for many years, I know Lion used to sell one, as did Origin, and I am sure there are some (not many) still using that method.

Hope all goes well with your talk.

Steven

[markw]

Steven
I know of a number of framers who still use a pricing grid - I suspect they feel that it takes a lot of setting up to start using a pricing programme.
John has been very kind in his support - I am told that the warm dry climate in the Cotswolds wouldnt be good for him.

[John]

Yes Steven, I was looking forward to a trip to the Cotswolds.

But then I heard that these FATG meetings weren't no picnic!

[John]

No, wait. Apparently they are.

[Merlin]

I spent a long time looking around all the PC pricing progs, some were good, some were ...errrrr not so good.

So in the end I wrote my own programme and have used it for over 7 years now. with amendments of course as experience is gathered.

I totally agree though with a PC based pricing programme. My sister ran her framing shop with the grid and a calculator. Not Good. Too many arguements from the customers. As soon as she upgraded to a PC , no more arguements !!

Amazing ... The power of a PC.

[John]

Steven,

Just realised that, sensitive soul that you are, you feel that you mustn't mention the name of your frame pricing software.

I appreciate your tact, but it is unnecessary.

While, for now, EstLite is sponsoring the forum, this will not necessarily always be the case.

The forum exists as a platform for framers to share their views on topics of common interest, it is not owned or controlled by the sponsor.

Ok, I am the self-appointed moderator and I have a bit of an interest in a certain software, but as moderator of this forum, the only matters that I am concerned with are in the areas of taste and manners - a very easy job given such a civilised and well-behaved membership. I hope that in the future, when numbers swell, other moderators will be appointed who will help shoulder the "burden".

And here is no reason why other vendors could not create their own sub-forums to offer product support in the same way as EstLite.

The forum really is for everyone.

[More So]

I have been thinking of following Merlin's example, but rather than writing a program, just setting up a spreadsheet to calculate frame prices.

Anybody got any tips on how to proceed, or is this beyond the skills of the average punter?

[markw]

more so - unless you are doing very basic calcs a spreadsheet just doesnt do the business - if you give one of the simple pricing programmes a go, i promise you wont want to use anything else.

Pricing isnt just about getting to an aggreable cost as quickly as possible - if your working in a commercial environment then you have to consider such things as presentation - traceability etc
The customer will be impressed by a well organised copy of the order form. The Tax man - bless him - will like the fact that he can see what you do - and most importantly - you can organise your work flow.

[Merlin]

Hi More so
Have sent you a PM via this site
Regards

[More So]

Many thanks for your very kind offer John. I would like to keep that option open, if I may.

But looking closely at what mark has said, I have decided to give some of these packages a try.

I see they start as low as £50, and for that sort of money it would hardly make economic sense to do my own unless I could knock it out in a few hours. Unless of course, the satisfaction of doing the thing myself would outweigh the £ value of the time involved. And there's a lot to be said for that.

[John]

Hi MS,

There is a fairly comprehensive list of framing software here:-

http://www.getthepictureframing.com/gfaq/software.htm

However, like you said, the do-it-yourself approach can be very satisfying. Though be careful, you've got to know when to stop or the whole thing can get way out of hand. The basic EstLite program comprises 52,201 lines of code, and each of those lines has been written and re-written many times over, and probably twice as much as that was written pursuing ideas that proved unworkable and then had to be abandoned. If I had known at the beginning just what was involved, I probably wouldn't have started. Ignorance is bliss!

You are right; there is no reason why a spreadsheet like Excel could not form the basis of a functional frame-pricing calculator (I once gave it a go myself). And with a bit of coaxing, could even keep records, make reports, and print framing dockets. But be aware that it would take considerable effort and a lot of 'midnight oil'. If you decide to go that route, please let me know. I think I have some Excel Visual Basic stuff that would help maybe save you a few hours here and there. After all there is no point in re-inventing the wheel.

[Mike@GTP]

When evaluating programs on that list, it's also important that the product is set up to handle your local measurements (imperial vs metric), can provide the updates for the local suppliers you use, date format (mm/dd/yyyy vs dd/mm/yyyy), and supports your local tax structure.

When compiling the list, I realized most are either designed for UK/AU or USA markets. Very few are suitable on a global basis, because of these unique traits.

I can't imagine running a frame shop without a power and flexibility of a POS.

POS systems have features such as instant pricing and price comparisons with various components, auto due date scheduling/calendar based on workload, support for multiple mats and multiple mouldings, automatic price and product updates as soon as they become available, customer database and mailing list management, accounts receivable, the ability to "network" additional terminals as your shop grows, ability to export jobs to the CMC, client receipts and corporate billing, sales tax, exempt, and income tracking, "workorders" (detailed instructions for the back room), "pick" or "shopping" lists which give you a detailed list of what needs to be ordered, time clock for staff, reports such as top 10 sellers, automatic ordering via internet, cash drawer support, barcode reader support, receipt printer support, visualization support, emails to customer on order completion, inventory , misc (non framing) sales, consignment tracking, art sales inventory, commission tracking, multi store support, automatic backups, support for most vendors, credit card processing, touch screen support, multi language support, voice support, MAC support, etc

Does any ONE program have ALL of those features? NO
Will you use ALL of those features? NO, but most of them!

I'm a big fan of POS systems, CMCs and automation. It's very positive that you're jumping in to get your feet wet. Keep in mind that an automated system requires the same supervision and management as a manual system. (ie: Setting items to perceived market value, not necessarily always a formula)

My advice is to grab the applicable free demos and test drive them all to see what "feels right" for your workflow and situation.

As one of the most popular, ESTLITE would be a great place to start!

Mike

[sarah]

I have to say that I don't know how anyone operates without some form of pricing software.

Well I actually can't understand those that operate without EstLite

Seriously, I came into the framing world two years ago and the computerised pricing system has been a saviour. Pricing made easy, customer history, stock control, professional reciepts/dockets - wonderful! Aslo manages to make us look very professional and up to date, which hopefully creates a sense of confidence within our customers.

Moreso regardless of what system you buy or even if you set something up for yourself I don't think you will regret it!

Viva hte technological revolution

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

Me? A sensitive soul? Never!!!! My wife I have a very un-endearing qaulity, 'open gob without engaging brain' and that I am as sensitive as a slap in the face.

Having said that, I am on my own admission a very senstive person, but only shown at certain times......like.....when Man United get beat, when the Welsh beat the Irish at rugby (Come on now, the Welsh....hahahahaha Lyn), mind you I laughed when the Welsh beat the English team and rubbed the smug smile of a few faces, but the great Chariots will be back

Steven

So you see, I am sensitive......