Another pricing question!

[chaos]

I am so sorry to ask a pricing question, but here goes.

I was asked to match a frame. The image was framed in Luxembourg 18 years ago so the original frame is not available (I did waste time looking) but I said I could recreate it!

I found a similar profile from R&H, A34.
The original has a
grey under coat visible in places
the dome is blue - sanded to shabby
the scoop is brown - sanded to shabby
brush stroked silver over the brown
silver eight edge
gloss varnish.
Failed to add an image. (How do I do that?) I have practised and managed a reasonable recreation.

Details.
Frame R&H A34
Image size 544x 434mm
5.5mm single mount (D3715) surrounding L&J confetti fillet (115653)
AR99WW glass (cut to size)
FramR has marked up at 61% so total is a tad below £465. I cant charge that unfortunately

[NTG999]

A 61% markup is low, that is a margin of about 38%, I'm guessing you also haven't factored in all the time that you have already spent?
How many minutes have you added to FramR for your custom work?
I'm guessing the customer chose AR99 which has made the job expensive, that is their choice, my suggestion stop now especially if they aren't willing to pay the quoted price

[pramsay13]

What is your pricing question?

If you're asking if it's a reasonable price then £465 seems a lot for a frame that size, but if that's your price, offer it and see what they say.
Offer them a factory finished moulding that is close in size or finish as an alternative assuming it would be less.

[Justintime]

Why can't you charge that?
You're clearly not happy with the FramR price but why not? Have you looked at the back end to see how it has come up with the price? What don't you agree with?

[chaos]

I think it is a lot for a frame of that size.

I am new to framing and I have not charged for any of the time I have spent trialling colours or looking for suitable frame profiles, it is my time & if I had 10 years experience under my belt it wouldnt take the time it took me. Happy to learn & experiment.

My customer is very precise - knows what he wants and he wanted the existing frame again. He wants AR99WW on anything he brings to me. Styles & fashions change and there was no factory finished frame similar.

FramR price breakdown shows me nearly 170mins labour of which 110 are painting sanding varnishing etc (£90 labour) and materials about £180 totalling £275 ish. My per hour cost is £32.
My question is two fold I supppose- have I set up FramR wrongly and do you think it is a fair price for the size of frame?

[Justintime]

In my opinion there's no such thing as a fair price for a sized frame. You could have a black mono frame or a really expensive LJ moulding of the same size but poles apart in price. A hand finished high spec job will cost what it costs.
I would be looking at your labour time that FramR is giving you and compare it to how long you really thing it would take you. 170 mins does sound like a lot for a hand finish but you'll know best on this one. It's ok to lose a job because someone isn't willing to pay your price and it's also ok to charge what you perceive to be a lot of money. Some customers think £100 is expensive, others think £500 isn't expensive.

[Justintime]

"..have I set up FramR wrongly?"
That's difficult to say without seeing how you've set it up.
I'm taking back what I said about labour time. I've had a proper look at my FramR and that job could well be a lot of labour. It sounds way beyond my hand finishing jobs atm so I'm not the best to guesstimate.
You've only given image size not frame size.
Honestly I'd go with what you've got, my guesstimate is that I'd be similar.

[NTG999]

There are many variables for your hourly rate, I have mine set on FramR as £40.00, I do smile to myself in that I must be incredibly slow because every job takes twice as long as FramR suggest.
I think the point with your job is he has asked you to recreate an 18yr old frame from a different country, if he had asked me (and I think a lot of framers) I wouldn't have been able to help him - if there isn't a suitable pre-finished moulding, no can do!
You have said he is a fussy don't sell yourself short, IMO definitely don't reduce the price, hopefully you don't regret taking it on as the hours go by....

[JFeig]

Being an accountant in a former life I have a question or two.

• have you done any cost accounting analysis of your fixed and variable costs?

• have you an idea on what you want regarding income from your labor?

• have you any idea on what you want as a return on your investment as a business owner?

Each of these factors should be taken into consideration as a craftsperson who operates a business.

• Fixed and variable costs include but are not limited to, rent, utilities, phone and internet, banking charges, an accountant, advertising, the purchase of equipment, cost of in-stock inventory, supplies, transportation, training and working on experimental projects to broaden your skills, and so on. Based on the fixed and variable costs being £20k, that's about £10 per hour. If you are a cottage based framer, you still should consider all of these costs.

• https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/pi ... KO0,14.htm Based on an average of £31K per year as an employee that is about £15.50 per hour. This does not take into consideration the costs taken on by your employer such as holidays and insurance of various types. This also doesn't take into consideration a profit on labor. Another item that is left out is a retirement pension that would supplement your national program.

• Lastly, a business owner wants a return on their investment. If you have £15,000 invested, as an example what would you want as a return? 5%, 10%? Just a 5% return on £15k would be £7.50/ hour.

All of sudden £32 per hour doesn't sound like too much.

[vintage frames]

I'm going to come at this from a completely different direction.

Yes, use your FrameR, or whatever to work out your framing costs and margins when assembling the materials and sticking it all together.

But when it comes to creating a hand-finished effect, then it's often just a matter of sticking a wet finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing.
Take as long as you need, do a good job and both you and your customer will be happy.
What odds if you spend a few days getting it right, not to mention lying in bed thinking how you could have done it better.
The fact that you've been able to do it to at least your own satisfaction means it was all worth it because of what you have now learned.
In the end you'll have become a more accomplished and confident framer.

Do the job - it's a one off anyway; stand back and strike what you think is a fair price for the work you have done.