Alfamacchine U300 vs U300P

[WannabeFramer]

I am considering upgrading my underpinner (Alfamacchine U200P) and have been looking at the U300 as i want a horizontal clamp.

I have been in no particular rush, but I currently have the option of a decent second-hand U300P which has thrown me as it would ordinarily be out of my price range.

The main advantage I can see between the two models is the clamping system. The U300P has the clamps activated once and the v-nail head then moves automatically between insertion points without needing to release the clamp until the join is finished.

The U300 works the same as my existing one, which I am used to. (Clamp - wedge - release - re-position - clamp - wedge - release etc.)

My main consideration is quality joins, not necessarily speed, and the U300P is aimed at volume production. However the clamping system sounds like it could be superior and give better results. Is that right?

Has anyone had experience of both models, or other brands with similar differences? I am wary of making a snap decision, but also don’t want to turn down the U300P if it is vastly superior.

There are other differences and specs, the only one relevant to me is like U300P only allowing 3 wedge positions. I can’t decide if that would ever really be an issue for me. I’m not sure, although I don’t think so.

So in summary, I am looking for advice as to whether one is genuinely a much better machine that I should jump at. Or not.

(I could go and try both at Lion, but I wouldn’t have time before the chance of the U300P disappears. And I would feel bad as I couldn’t afford the 300P new from them right now)

[vintage frames]

I'm sure an automatic clamp is a handy thing but I've never understood why it's worth paying extra money just to have one.
A clamp isn't going to make the joints any better - or am I wrong?

If the mitres are cut correctly, then pushing them into the underpinner, by hand, will do as good a job as is needed.
Any twists or errors in the cut mitre are always going to be shown up by the action of the top clamp.

[WannabeFramer]

Thanks, yes that makes sense.

[Justintime]

Unless you're aiming to do production levels of the same moulding I think you'll find the 300P a disadvantage over the 300, which is more versatile and better suited to bespoke jobs, where each job requires a different moulding and some fine tuning. Or in the words of AI: "In essence: Choose the U300P if you're doing many identical frames and need speed and stability; choose the standard U300 if your work varies greatly and you need to easily adjust for different frame sizes and joint positions. Both use pneumatic power and V-nails for strong, consistent frame assembly. "

[JKX]

The main advantage I can see between the two models is the clamping system. The U300P has the clamps activated once and the v-nail head then moves automatically between insertion points without needing to release the clamp until the join is finished.

The U300 works the same as my existing one, which I am used to. (Clamp - wedge - release - re-position - clamp - wedge - release etc.)

My main consideration is quality joins, not necessarily speed, and the U300P is aimed at volume production. However the clamping system sounds like it could be superior and give better results. Is that right?

I would say that’s absolutely right. The join held immobile while v nails are fired from a block that moves below is the way to go. Whatever its cons over the 300 are I’m sure it can be adapted once you’re familiar with it.

Sounds like an opportunity to be grabbed.

[Justintime]

Hold the front page, I'm going back on my previous comment and agree with JKX! (now that I've read your post and not just skimmed it )
@vintageframes the pneumatic clamps are really useful. The force is considerable and once any corrections have been made, the top clamp doesn't usually change it.
@wannabeframer my cassese 487 does the same as the 300P. It's a lot less effort and much more reliable results imo.
Three positions should be fine. I can't think when I've ever needed more than three??

[WannabeFramer]

Thanks all, food for thought as always.

I understand the comment about the top clamp showing up any cutting errors and I am wary of blaming tools. But I do think a horizontal clamp is extremely helpful. I didn’t think I would when I got the U200P, but I really miss the one on my old manual Casesse.

My caution is getting the U300P now without having the chance to try both models. However, the U300P is twice the price of the U300 new, so that must count for something.

I have been watching various videos and I think the AI summary about production vs bespoke refers to the set-up time. The U300P looks like it takes a little longer to set the stops, but then quicker to use and hence good for volume. The U300 is slightly easier to set, so better for constant changing, therefore bespoke.

We are talking 1-2 minutes at most though. Not something that is an issue for me.

I have decided to go and see the U300P and I can test it to my hearts content. Ultimately it will still cost me less than a new U300, so if it works…..

Road trip time!

[JKX]

I’m sure you can use as many positions as you like between the back and front positions as long as you’re ok with eyeballing them, that’s surely the case, as you could need a couple more on wider mouldings.

The centre stop is just to ensure an accurate/critical certain location each time, surely?

My old Euro 9000 had a scale on the side. You just noted the position of the pointer for anything you wanted between back and front.

My cassesse 200 didn’t, so I jolly well made one with a self adhesive scale and a sharpie!

[vintage frames]

I think going to see one in operation is a jolly good idea.

If you were to spend all that money on the 300p, then you would be the local picture framer in town who has an automatic clamping system on their underpinner.
Would that investment really make such a difference to your business?
Apart of course, from the satisfaction which you will enjoy seeing that automatic clamp doing its clever little motion when joining up a picture frame.

I'm only saying this because I'm still a sceptic on the subject of auto clamps on framing equipment.
Cutting a true and accurate mitre trumps all other conveniences.
That's what your customers are paying you for.
The underpinner is only there to join it all up.

[JKX]

What progressive experience do you have to be sceptical Dermot?

I started with a mitre box and a vice, not even a mitre vice, just a vice. It lasted maybe a month before I bought a Morso and a manual underpinner . When I upgraded to a pneumatic underpinner with rebate clamps it was a case of “why the hell didn’t I do this day one”. When that packed in, after 18 years or so I bought a CS 200, caught up with progress and thought the same!

These rebate clamps are not automatic, they have to be set a certain distance away from the rebate and then you have to press something to engage them. The only automatic thing I had was auto pressure sensoring on the CS200. The old Euro went THUMP and that was it; the pressure pad on the 200 would not release until the V nail was fully inserted.

These things evolve by demand and make for consistency and quality at speed, and like all modern gear, they allow you to concentrate on other things. If one wants to use saws, nails and fillers that’s fine, and if one decides to upgrade to a Morso and a good pneumatic joiner and then think “nah - I prefer the old way”. (Yeah, right!), that’s fine too!

And if your mitres are out, no joining machine in the world will fix it.

[Justintime]

@vintageframes for some of us who use...ahem..."chop service" for mouldings that we don't want to stock in length, the mitre cut quality is out of our hands. Extra tools in our arsenal like good clamps can make the difference to the bottom line. I know pre-finished is a dirty word in your wheel house but it's a big part of the income stream for a lot of us. Chops are not cheap and you get one shot at it. It can be quite anxiety inducing if a simple process turns into a half an hour fix with band clamps, fillers etc. In many ways your bare wood process makes it easy, easy to sort out any warp and twist issues, any slight misalignments. Prefinished can be a mine field to work with, but allows us to provide a reasonably priced framing solution for low value "artwork".

[WannabeFramer]

I do understand that no underpinner will fix a bad join, I really do. But I do also buy chop and, like Justin says, that is beyond my control. The U200P I have is great and a world away from my old manual one. But I want the addition of a horizontal clamp and micro adjustments now.

The only thing I am hesitant about on the U300P is the 3 positions. They are set in place before firing the wedges. It doesn’t look like that can be eyeballed or changed once set up.

The U300 has front and back stops, then as many wedges as you like in between. But, the (less superior?) clamping system.

Both will suit me. It is just which I spend my money on and not regret the choice.

[JKX]

I would guess that if the 300 can fire as many wedges as you like between front and back, so can the 300p. The centre position is probably most useful if it’s critical - eg a scooped moulding where the lowest point would be too low and a wedge would shoot through to the front and/or speed when you want it pretty much central without having to even look.

[vintage frames]

I used to be a contract framer.
None of my machines used clamps.
The operator operated the machine with the skill of his hands. The machine didn't do the work for him.
It was speed speed speed, buying in pre-finished mouldings by the box-load and passing the frames through a double mitre saw and production underpinner by the hundreds.
So use clamps if you want to. Maybe it will help make life a bit more interesting.

I wouldn't last 5 min as a high street framer.
I'd be hating all the mouldings I'd have to use, and I'd be hating the things customers were giving me to frame.
It was probably that frustration that lead me to where I am now.
So full respect for everyone who can make a good living doing it otherwise.

[JKX]

Oh come on, operating machines with the skill of your hands - just go away and make some resolutions FGS!

The best machinery you can, or even at the time, can’t afford, is a business investment and will increase quality and productivity and there’s a clear winner here, indicated by a £1600 plus VAT price difference.

I ran a retail business including framing for 27 years and was VAT registered for 21 of those (are you?) if we hadn’t accounted for the two sides of the shop separately we’d have been VATed for another three years. We paid non domestic waste collection, business rates, wages, PAYE and all the rest of it.

We were certainly passionate but at the end of the day we existed to make money. You vv the vast majority of this forum and the uk framing trade just do it differently, but the difference is that vast majority have no issue with the minority you’re in.
Pack it in.

[vintage frames]

Operating machines - that was just the way we did it. The guys I employed took great care and skill to get the best out of each process. It was just a matter of pride to get every mitre exactly right.
Anything to make the job more interesting.

The original OP is a sole bespoke framer. She too will want the best mitres possible.
I'm not sure the extra clamping facility will help much. Not for the money, anyway.

I'm not going to get into competitive framing history, but let's say the happiest business decision I ever made was to be able to reduce my turnover to below the VAT threshold and yet make even more profit for myself.

[WannabeFramer]

Sorry this is going off topic now. Which was simply whether anyone has experience of either model or similar options.

We are all at different stages of different businesses with different skill sets and USPs. All of us want the best quality and outcomes. All our opinions are valid and give food for thought. If we all liked or did the same thing, the world would be a rather boring place.

[vintage frames]

Yes, sorry for causing the topic to drift a bit.
But at least it was an interesting conversation and gave everyone something new to read about.

Indeed we are all different but don't we need opinions from all ends of the business, otherwise this forum would be a monoculture.

And that would be boring.

[WannabeFramer]

Absolutely, it has been an interesting read. .

I have just been to see a film with my kids. They loved it, I thought it was ‘meh’. After a movie or book I always look up reviews to see what the consensus is and find it fascinating how varied they are. This is what I enjoy about this forum, the various opinions and everyone’s experiences.

Back to framing, my business and lifestyle are on the cusp of change anyway and I am fortunate to be able to invest a little at the moment. This is a choice on what works best for me personally, along with which I would find easier and more enjoyable to use.

I am certainly not trying to cut corners or automate anything, or use less skills. Far from it.

As I have evolved, learned and grown, so simply has my equipment and the choices I can afford to make. For example, I now have a CMC which was an impossibility when I started out. My customers neither know nor care, but goodness my life has been a lot less stressful of late with it on board.

The underpinner decision now boils down to a second-hand, slightly unknown ‘better’ model. Or a new ‘lesser’ one. Damn. Maybe I should just flip a coin


Blwyddyn Newydd Dda / Happy New Year folks.