working with a third party

[michelle]

I have always framed directly with the customer or with corporate clients but have recently been approached by shops wanting to offer my services to their customers. It all sounds like an opportunity I would be crazy to not take up on but thought I would come here to see if anyone can advise me on any pitfalls to look out for. In addition what is the going rate for this sort of third party work? do they get a % of what ever sales they take ( if so how much ) or do they add a mark up on your costs? obviously there would be a minimum I could accept for a job but not sure how this works out given that they are doing the point of sale work. how much do you take off your standard price?
Sorry I have so many questions in one posting but any help would be greatly received.
many thanks
Michelle

[prospero]

The biggest problem I can see is that the person who takes the order will probably have no idea of the technical side of framing and may present you with a totally impractiacal job. It wouldn't occur to an untrained salesperson that a tapestry would not go into a moulding with a 8mm deep rebate. The hassle factor could be quite considerable. Top this with the fact that the shop would want their cut. You would have to supply the shop with a comprehensive set of samples and keep them up to date.

[framejunkie]

Perhaps a better way would be to have the other establishment refer its customers to you, and for them to get a referral fee on any jobs you get via them - i suppose a percentage of the total job would be the easy way to do it. Otherwise i can't see a way around the potential pitfalls which Prospero has highlighted

[michelle]

thanks prospero
I take all your points on board and perhaps I should give a little more info. One is a print shop who are looking to offer a fuller service for those who come in with pictures/canvas printing so I am not expecting anything other than straight forward stuff. They are also looking for a limited range of mouldings/mounts and a catalogue as opposed to a full frame shop, space is limited. As you say the key will be to get an idiot proof work sheet. . The other shop wants to sell our work complete ( as in our own prints mounted and framed ) so no complications there other than mark up.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Michelle,

This sounds pretty straight forward to me. Plenty of companies like photographic studios do something similar and generally get a range of better quality ready made frames from wholesale photo-labs and do the fitting themselves. Your customers approach shows that your customer is being quite smart in this case, my making sure that the whole job is going to be done by someone competent, so it will make them look good.

I would suggest that as they are aiming to share in the profits, then it is reasonable that they also have a share in the risks too! What I mean is get them to take a deposit, to cover their customer consultancy time and to cover your up front expenses. They keep some of the deposit, but pass the rest onto you with the order. If you play this right then all your materials and part of your normal mark up are passed to you at the time of the order, this means that neither you nor your customer can end up out of pocket.

Choose you mouldings and materials with care to ensure a good profit for both you and your customer, while ensuring a good quality job. Don't put your own label on the frames, but get some printed with his name on them, which you fit not him. This will help keep him locked in to you as his supplier.

[michelle]

framejunkie - our posts must have crossed over during sending, I certainly wasn't ignoring you. I think your idea would be great if we were in the same place but we have a 12 miles between our services and I think we would loose customers along the way, unless it was for something special. certainly a way forward for those jobs though.
Not your average framer - I hadn't thought of deposits, or labelling I like your ideas.
thanks to both of you for your ideas/comments
I still don't know what % is expected or is reasonable for a third party any ideas.
michelle

[prospero]

I would imagine that the other shop would want at least 25%. Maybe 40%. Whatever they want comes off your profit.
Even if they paid you your full retail price and put a mark-up on top, you would have to increase the price to your own customers to match the these prices, otherwise feathers could be ruffled. Whatever the shop charges for a job needs to be the same as what you would charge a customer who came directly to you. Don't think people will never make the comparison. They will eventually and then there will be acrimony. On that path lies madness.....

It's a question of a two-tier pricing system - trade and retail. The trade price needs to be round about the minimum price you can do the job for, before it becomes uneconomic. The retail price is basically the maximum price you can get away with.

You may get into a situation where you are inundated with orders from the shop which you have to give priority to, but are getting paid peanuts for. In the meantime you might have a lot of better paid work of your own lying around. If you can strike a balance it could be a good thing, so don't let me put you off completely.

[Not your average framer]

Even if they paid you your full retail price and put a mark-up on top, you would have to increase the price to your own customers to match the these prices, otherwise feathers could be ruffled. Whatever the shop charges for a job needs to be the same as what you would charge a customer who came directly to you. Don't think people will never make the comparison. They will eventually and then there will be acrimony. On that path lies madness.....

That's why I posted the bit about choosing mouldings to generate enough profit for you both. In doing so, I am assuming that your suppliers set of sample chevron and your own set of sample chevrons would not be the same and ideally your customer would be limited to a set range of mountboard colours too! The idea being that you carry a small stock of materials specially to enable you to do your customers work with the minimum of hassle to yourself and to avoid having to order materials every time you receive an order.

[Roboframer]

You've been approached by people (shops) wanting to offer your services to their customers?

Well done - make it work!

Think about it - how long does the design stage take with some customers?

While you are in that stage you could be making stuff - or maybe you could still be if you have staff that can take the orders - but you are PAYING them.

This third party is doing that - not stopping you from doing things and not costing you a penny in wages for doing it.

Is that worth a discount?

I'd say yes!

I have very good repeat customers that get a discount - and shops providing repeat business would come under that category. But they even have an advantage over my own repeat customers, I have not had to take the order, and they could have saved me an hour on some orders and definitely an average of 20 mins per order.

I've had good and bad experiences with 'agency' work but the good has far outweighed the bad and more has come from the good. Like that frame-in-a-frame corporate job I posted here - that came from recommendation from a photographer I was doing 'agency' work for. And more came from that corporate job too. Never would have got a sniff without the agency work.

I'd say go for it - just make sure you and the people taking the orders are talking the same language - for example you won't want a 80x60 poster with an additional 10cm of mount and then a skinny black frame ....... don't even give them that skinny black sample - but do give them some training in design, tailored around the mount/moulding samples you want them to/think they can best shift.

Then, if it's working to your satisfaction after a time period that you are happy with, start adding mount fillets (slips) and other upgrades and give them samples of framed 3D objects - whatever.

Having said all that - only you can get that first impression - of the place and of the people running it - does it/do they impress you?

[Not your average framer]

John (Roboframer) is exactly right about this. How many businesses have an oportunity to increase their level of business in this present climate? The chance is too good to miss, if you can do business with them and avoid unreasonable financial risks in doing so, then go for it!

In this present business environment, this is a win/win situation. Your customer is smart enough to add something extra to their business, which in reality will cost them close to nothing and they are offering you extra business, which also will cost you close to nothing too!

Ideally their range of moulding chevrons will not compete to much with your own, so if the same customer seeks a price from you both then you will not be both quoting like for like to the same possible customer.

[Roboframer]

We have a dry cleaning agency - long story short - the needlework/wool shop we took over in 97 had it and we kept it on - a village service that would have otherwise been lost. But hey - peeps wot have stuff dry cleaned regular, we want to know anyway - peeps in suits - bring 'em on!

Anyway - our dry cleaner has about 30 agencies and are busy at their own shop anyway. We get 30% for filling in a docket - and if the customer went direct they'd not pay one penny more - bar fuel.

In all the villages and small towns where this cleaner has an agency there is little chance of a dry cleaner opening up - it's covered. So that's something else to take in to account - establish a respected framing agency and keep the competition at bay.

[Not your average framer]

There could be some valuable lessons here for us all. Paricularly for those who lack their own shop windows, if other 'agency' businesses can be found, to take in work.

[michelle]

Thanks to everyone for their words of advice and general support. I now feel really excited about the opportunity and more confident to stride ahead with it all. I have spent a large part of the week so far sorting out my pricing etc. ( needed re-doing anyway) and it has given me the push to buy the estlite programme, and generally get more sorted.
I should be meeting with the guy in the next few days so I will keep you informed of my progress. I am now very clear about what I can and cant do for what cost so am in a good place for negotiating
thanks again everyone
Michelle
by the way isn't estlite brilliant should have used it ages ago, but I guess I am talking to the converted here.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Michelle,

Don't forget to discuss what happens in the event that one of his or her customers fails to collect their work. If you can agree about this before starting to do business together, it may save a lot of problems later and keep your customer 'on board' and positive through such difficulties.