Am I too expensive?

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 11:48 am

A photographer came in the other day wanting some A3 photographs framed with a window mount and standard glass. He had 6 photos with him with a promise of more to come as he has an exhibition coming up.

I quoted £28 each but he's decided to get them done by another framer for £18 each.

I decided to use Simon's 403-000-167 20mm black stain with grain, Colourmount 308 for the window mount and Art-Bak Conservation backing board. Dunno what the other guy is using. Photographer says he wouldn't mind paying £20 but not £28.

Not sure I'd want to do the job for £18 each but there might be between 20 and 30 photos to frame.

What would you do?

Post by **prospero** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 12:55 pm

£28 sounds more than reasonable for a single frame. I'm always a bit wary when people say there might be such and such amount to do. Get him to work out exactly what he wants framing so you can size the job up properly and give him a quote for the entire lot. Don't let him pin you down to a price for a job which later turns out to be more invloved than he lead you to believe
If there were 30 A3, all in indentical frames, then 20x30=600 less about 200 materials. Not a bad earner. But if there turned out to be less and they all needed the mount apertures fine-tuning and other general niggly things.....

First principle: Get all the ducks in a row.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 1:16 pm

Hi Mike
We use that moulding as well quite successfully.

with a 40mm border using Arq Cons whitecore. Bog standard float and Art-Bak Aqua. Wwe would have quoted £30.11 for 1. 5 or more gets 5% discount.

So your figure is more realistic. makes you wonder what the other framers is using.

WelshFramer · Post by **WelshFramer** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 1:39 pm

Thanks, folks. Nice to know I'm not being unreasonable.

Post by **John** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 2:15 pm

If once in a while you don't have someone tell you that you are too dear, you are too cheap.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 2:25 pm

prospero wrote:£28 sounds more than reasonable for a single frame.

Seconded.

prospero wrote:... people say there might be such and such amount to do.

Either there is, or there isn't (and in these cases I've found that the latter is true). No volume discounts till the volume order is booked. And as Prospero rightly comments, beware of "fine tuning"...

Merlin wrote: ... makes you wonder what the other framer is using.

His life savings?

Jonny2morsos · Post by **Jonny2morsos** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 4:38 pm

Assuming you framing the A3 up to 20 x 16 size then my standard price would be £37.06 and again assuming Simons 403 000 167 is the same as Arqadias same catalogue number (20mm black grained finish).

Regarding discounts I will be generous if I am supplying just the frame, mount, glass and backing board for them to put together themselves. If we are doing the whole job i.e. mounting work, cleaning glass, taping back, adding cord etc then I am not inclined to give a lot off as we find this is the time consuming part of the operation.

There is always some one willing to do things cheaper as I found out a while back when quoting somebody for a large quantity of mounts. Thing is they came back to me this week as their previous supplier had gone bust!

I am happy to let my competitors take the cheap jobs and hang on to the better paying jobs.

I do know how you feel as none of us like losing work.

John.

framemaker · Post by **framemaker** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 6:24 pm

My price for 1x A3 image size with 40mm/45mm 308 colourmount single mount, artbak conservation, glass and in arqadia 403 000 167 and assembly/fitting would be £ 36.80 Ex VAT.

although I may go to £35 total depending on a few factors....

If the customer wanted it very quickly (less than 7 days) I would also sometimes add a charge for this, anywhere between £2 and £40 depending on the specific job.

Depending on quantity I would give 5-10% discount.

So I really don't think you are to expensive! I would be interested to know the moulding/mountboard etc. used by the framer quoting £18

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 6:44 pm

Is it just me, or does anyone reckon that it would be a job to get an RMF for €18 at that glass size? Yer average standard photo RMFs over here are nearly a tenner. Bet yer bottom dollar that they're made in China, too.

DEEPJOY · Post by **DEEPJOY** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 7:04 pm

It's all about 'horses for courses'. Is the job at £18.00 to the same spec and standard as yours?
In terms of volume discount, you could charge him full money for the first job, but if he comes back with the numbers you could offset the extra he had paid in the first place against the new follow-on order. This way it's a 'win win' for both of you.
I am a great believer in a discount for volume (NOT MUCH), but a premium attached if people want product more quickly than your standard turnaround time. People do like to have a bit of a deal and if there is a little bit of give, it takes the edge off the situation. Take me for example, I would like to buy EStLite but at present I unable to afford it. However, if John let me send him 4 post- dated cheques, even excepting there would be no discount, it would help my decision to jump now. I'm sure he could retain control of the software in the event I was to default, not that I am that kind of guy. You see just a creative way of oiling the wheels and both parties win.

Keep the faith and reflect in what you have achieved and what these customers will loose out on in terms of your experience and craftsmanship, if they do not use you.

Deepjoy

Ultima Thule · Post by **Ultima Thule** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 9:12 pm

A guy came in yesterday wiyh an A4 photo to be framed for today- he fussed and hummed for about ten minutes over it, finally choosing an ancient red 1/2" cushion that I hadn't used in years. He left the mount colour to me but asked for a heart to be put on it. To get this involved me closing and eventually spending £2 on a set of card making bits. This morning in he came to pick it up and raised the roof when I charged him £17.88 for it- he paid up and left with an ill grace-so much for the price of true love.
Photographs generally are more trouble than they are worth; if I lived in a bigger town I would be inclined to say no to them but unfortunately I have to be nice to all the people all the time and boy is it hard somrtimes.

PS- I recouped some of the heart outlay by putting one on my wife's card- we'll see if this has any effect but after 33 years of marriage I somehow doubt it.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 9:27 pm

DEEPJOY wrote:It's all about 'horses for courses'. Is the job at £18.00 to the same spec and standard as yours?

Realistically, there's no way of telling without seeing specs/end product side-by-side. And maybe quality really doesn't matter that much to the customer in question.

DEEPJOY wrote:In terms of volume discount, you could charge him full money for the first job, but if he comes back with the numbers you could offset the extra he had paid in the first place against the new follow-on order. This way it's a 'win win' for both of you.

That has to be one of the wisest recommendations I've ever read on the Forum! Suggest you post the same advice in the "Learned the Hard Way" dos and don'ts thread, Deepjoy!

Wish I'd had such fine advice 3½ years ago...

Post by **prospero** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 9:45 pm

You could of course quote him 20 and take the whole lot round to the other framer and get him to do them for you for 18.

Maybe that's not so wise.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 9:47 pm

I'll never be a Donald Trump...

Post by **prospero** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 9:50 pm

Moglet wrote:

I'll never be a Donald Trump...

I'm enormously relieved to hear that.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 9:57 pm

The more I think about the "Am I Too Expensive?" question, the more it resembles the question, "How Long is a Piece of String?"

One's overheads are one's overheads, and one needs to price one's work to pay for overheads, materials, and one's living. If there are people who have a track record of undercutting one's prices in one's area, and have a track record of success and long-term survival, then one perhaps one should be asking oneself much more fundamental questions...

(Sorry for sounding a little "Buck House" there... best way I could find to express my thoughts...)

Post by **prospero** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 10:32 pm

One doesn't drink champagne out of one's jam-jar.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Feb, 2009 10:34 pm

Most certainly not! One doesn't want it to drip out through the rust holes... One is in the middle of a recession, after all!

Not your average framer · Sat 14 Feb, 2009 10:42 pm

WelshFramer wrote:I quoted £28 each but he's decided to get them done by another framer for £18 each.

What would you do?

I'm not in my shop, so I can't check, but I think your £28 quote is already quite a bit cheaper than me.

That's a big discount, he's trying to get! £18 per frame sounds like too much work for too little money. I'd have to be really desperate to even think about doing it that cheap. If you start trying to compete at those sort of prices, you'll soon get more of that sort of customer coming round to waste even more of your time.

See if you can find out who this other framer is, and if the price is genuine. Perhaps you can send all the other time wasters to him too!

The Jolly Good Framer #1 · Sat 14 Feb, 2009 11:24 pm

It’s an old trick to say that you can get it cheaper else where. Call his bluff and say ok go to the other picture framer.
Then one of three things will happen
1. There is no other picture framer and he was just trying to get you to drop your price.
2. The other picture framer is doing them cheap and the frames will be a poor quality.
3. The other picture framer will go out of business because he is not charging enough.

One way or another the customer will probably be back paying your prices.
Your £28 is a fair price. Maybe if he had a history of being a good customer, then a discount.

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