Logan Sander

[emeraldart]

Hi All
First time here. Im impressed with all the practical answers here so maybe someone can guide me on the following:
I use a very good compound mitre saw and a logan Pro joiner. The mitre look very good until I under pin them and there is often a sizeable gap as if the the mitres are forced apart by the pinning. Its been suggested to me to use a Logan precision sander to get a perfect joint . Has anyone experiencece of this tool.
I now glue up the joints and then underpin them and this works out quite well. I use a stanley Strap clamp which hold the four corners during glueing. This is an excellent tool and cost only €14

[markw]

I've never used a logan joiner but having looked it up on the web it looks a bit frail considering the amount of pressure required to force that pin into the moulding. Its going to be difficult getting a good result with what amounts to amateur equipment.

the sort of gap you describe can come from a number of problems - but the fact that you get reasonable results by gluing and clamping possibly rules out some of them - but lets discuss them anyway.

Accuracy of cut - angle and length. If your using a saw that doesn't have sturdy fixed guides getting reliable accurate cuts can have a dramatic effect on the finished joints. This includes making sure the moulding is sitting nice and flat when cut - warping in the length of moulding can be a problem that is often overlooked and could give the result you describe - the underpinner relies upon the moulding sitting flat - clamping can take up some of the warp and give visually better joints. If you have a nice flat surface then place your cut length upon the surface - if you can rock the moulding from side to side you have a twist in the length. Also remember that a fractional difference in the length of any side will open the joints on the inside edge - you will get good individual joints - but not four good joints.

Some mouldings are very hard - your underpinner would struggle - gluing first is the best way to help. using hardwood wedges might help.

Now to answer your original question - Would a Logan sander help. Doubt it! is my answer, for the reasons above.

The answer to getting a good joint is to have very good equipment to cut and join.

[markw]

Sorry - Welcome to the forum Emerald art.

[prospero]

Hi and Welcome emeraldart.

I think you have answered your own question there. The underpinner is displacing the join if not firmly clamped. In all honestly, if this type of tool were up to the job, no one would spend a grand+ on a professional rig. If the frame fits together nicely 'dry', then sanding is not necessary.

I would make sure you get the pins in before the glue has had time to dry though.

[The Underpinner]

Hi Emerald art, and welcome to the forum,

I myself am new to both framing and the forum, and interestingly enough I have experienced exactly the same problem as yourself when using the Logan Pro Joiner; see recent "Tight mitres" thread.
As has been already mentioned, the LPJ does not appear to apply enough pressure directly over the V-nails during the pinning process, and you may also notice that the clamp frame actually contacts the V-nail block at the bottom of the lever stroke. This causes the inner clamp (on the screw thread) to push the moulding upwards and the joint to open slightly. I will assume at the moment your are trying to insert two V nails simultaneously; as slightly better results can be had by inserting one V nail at a time and ensuring the pressure block is directly above the V nail position.
The method that your are using i.e. glueing, then nailing has worked somewhat for me also but tends to defeat the purpose of purchasing the LPJ.
My own planned remedy is to get hold of a proper "pro" underpinner (CS88, and hopefully within the next week) as the frustration and inconsistency of the Logan system was too much to bear.

Also with regards to the Logan "Pro" sander; this in itself will not correct the problem you are experiencing, and I was personally advised not to buy this item, but rather a guillotine Mitre trimmer that gives very smooth mitre joint surfaces; basically a poor mans Morso!!!!

Anyway, hope you haven't fallen asleep and best of luck.

regards
Allan

[Dermot]

Welcome…

A lot of framers in the US swear by their mitre sanders…as they buy a lot of chop frames…and apparently they work very well

However one issue which I have never seen answered is how do you control the amount you remove with a sander, if the removal is not equal at each stick end you will end up with a frame out of skew ……

BTW Dave at Glenwood Moulding has a second hand virtually unused Cassese C89 pneumatic for sale, or at least he had a few weeks ago….price is very very reasonable…

Key to good frame joints is how you cut and how you join….

[Bill Henry]

I use a Morsø for mitering my rails rather than a saw. As a consequence, I don’t feel the need for a miter sander. However, framers over here that do use a saw, swear by (not at) their sanders. Since they are driven by hand rather than electrically, shaving too much off from the miter is not an issue. I also believe that a sander will eliminate that very small burr on the leading edge of a sawed (sawn?) moulding.

You might wish to check on The Grumble. There are plenty of discussions on miter sanders.

But, if you are getting considerable gaps when you join the moulding, I would guess that you have a problem with your clamping and underpinning which a miter sander cannot solve.

[emeraldart]

Thanks for all the advice. Looks like I have two separate issues. The cut is probably not 100% and the underpinner is not really up to the job. The glueing up helps but I do need to let it go hard before pinning. Otherwise there would be no point in glueing. Does anyone know where I can get a mitre trimmer in Ireland. Ill have to wait to get a good underpinner.

[Moglet]

Hi Emeraldart, and welcome.

If you don't get any joy here, try contacting Glenwood or Sisslings: they may be able to point you in the right direction.

[JFeig]

I have a manual sander. It comes in handy not only for repairing purchased chops; but, it is also a necessity in cleaning up old frames that have to be rejoined. Being hand operated, it will take off the old glue face or a few thousands of an inch (.01mm) It can also take off more when needed as in an old corner that has shrunk and no longer a true 45 degrees.

[Dermot]

The only way I suspect that you might get a mitre trimmer is if you can find one second-hand (most likely in the US only) as far as I’m aware they are no longer made as they don’t meet any safety standards…and cannot be adapted to do so…insurance could be an issue if you were using one in a workshop…

Sisslings had the Morso B in their showrooms the last day I was there, about three weeks ago…

I would strongly suggest you hold on and try and get a Morso F….

[Peter the framer]

Hi
You can get a mitre trimmer here
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... rc=froogle
I'm sure they'll post it to Ireland.

[markw]

Morso guillotines work by balancing the force of the cutting head equally on both sides of the cut. Trim a few millimetres off one end of the cut on a large hard moulding and you will experience yourself the effect - the moulding can be pushed sideways giving you a very inaccurate cut. This is normally very minimal on a small moulding and holding it firmly can keep the moulding in position. For a perfect cut I would still want to cut a V out of the moulding - making sure my last cut was very thin. Even when cutting a V I am sure that most framers do as I do and take small bites out of the wood - again try taking one cut out of a stick over 20mm wide and you will find the resulting joint isn't as good as it could be.

Looking at the Axminster Mitre trimmer I would comment that it seems to cut square - using the fence to set the angle - The Morso trimmer still cuts a V. I would imagine that getting a first class result on the Axmister trimmer on anything but very thin mouldings would be quite challenging.

[Moglet]

Morso guillotines work by balancing the force of the cutting head equally on both sides of the cut. Trim a few millimetres off one end of the cut on a large hard moulding and you will experience yourself the effect - the moulding can be pushed sideways ...

Ah, so that's why that happens! I have always wondered whether it was something I was doing wrong when that happened.

Very informative post, Mark. Thanks!

[mick11]

You can also get one here:
http://www.diyframing.com/store_viewCat ... egoryID=12

They are purely a finishing tool and used correctly give excellent results.

[framejunkie]

Ah, so that's why that happens! I have always wondered whether it was something I was doing wrong when that happened.

If your Morso is set up well, and your blades are fairly fresh and have been sharpened perfectly this can be avoided. Now that Cathandon are doing my blades i can trim slivers as thin as about 1mm off anything with no loss of accuracy - even the 2.5"x2" oak and the 3"x1.5" ash i use for 2 of my regular customers. That said, i can only do this with 2 of my 3 sets of blades - even Gordon at Cathandon cannot get the third set that good, so now that set are just there for emergencies( i suspect they may have overheated when they were being sharpened somewhere else)

[Moglet]

Thanks for additional info, Simon. It sounds like my Morso is a-OK setup-wise, as I can take really fine slivers off for the final cuts. I tend to experience the problem more when taking the earlier "bites" if you get me. That said, I always increase my grip on the moulding for the last few bites for good measure.

[Martin Harrold]

Couple of points:

Sanders - It was once suggested to me to put a pencil line on each end being sanded. Sand until the marks 'fade'. That way you should take off the same amount evry time.

Mite Trimmers - the one on the Axminster site looks very much like (maybe it's a close copy) of the original machine made by the Lion company (no relation) in USA. In my humble opinion, it's just unbelievably dangerous to use, which is why we don't sell it. Neither does it have any kind of length stop.

[Peter the framer]

Re. the mitre trimmer.
As a newcomer to this forum and to framing I simply answered the OP's question - Where to get a mitre trimmer? Several of the picture trade suppliers sell them besides Axminster. I have one and it is OK for very small volume framing and yes it could be dangerous so if you use one be careful.

I suppose what this thread does is identify that if you are new to framing you either buy the very basic mitre saw for around £100 or get a Morso (£1950) new prices. Even 12 year old Morsos are £700 region.
Unlike underpinners where there are a whole range of price points the guillotines seem to have nothing in the middle. I considered a hand operated Morso but after having a good look at the NEC I decided not for me.

If there is anything in-between please point me in the direction.

Great forum this - you are all so friendly and helpful.

[Martin Harrold]

You're quite right - there is nothing much in between, although lots of people get good results with a good hand mitre saw and a measure system like the FrameCo item on p.13. Look out for second-hand Morso machines, of which there are a few around just now. The weak pound has made new Morso prices as high as they are just now and expect s/hand prices to drift up, so at least your money is safe.

Take care to be sure that you get all the bits, sometimes the right hand extension goes walkies when they've been in store. Treat yourself to having the blades re-sharpened and take time to study your purchase from above and below, read the manual and see how it all works. There is much more to a Morso than most people realise - which is why there is no cheaper alternative. Clean it and lubricate with light oil at all the moving part points - EXCEPT the rebate support slides. Use dry lube there.