osgood wrote: This statement perpetuates the very low perception of our industry in the eyes of the public. This low perception of our industry is exactly why many artist and photographers and others with little or no knowledge get into the industry and many of them never bother to learn more about what they are doing.
The perception of many people is that framing consists of slapping four bits of wood together and jamming a picture and some glass and any old piece of flat substance as a backing into it and hey presto.....we have instantly become a "picture framer".
We can then hang a sign outside to encourage people to come to us for all their framing needs, and they do come. Having seen the sign the customer makes an assumption that is not always correct. The assumption is that the person behind the sign is an expert and has enough knowledge to preserve anything anyone brings in.
If we as framers learn as much as we can and more importantly, help to raise the perception of this industry to our customers and the general public and to other framers, then we can promote several benefits to ourselves and the industry in general.
Some of the many benefits of raising the perception of the industry are:
1. Prevent many people from thinking this is a "dinky" industry that they can easily get into without having to learn very much.
2. Prevent a proliferation of "dinky" framing businesses who compete with us and who take business away from us and usually lower the standard of framing by selling at low prices.
3. We can increase the perceived worth of our work and so raise our prices and thus make a better income.
It's every framer's choice to either assist in raising the perception and value of our industry or alternatively drag it down with comments such as the one quoted above.
What's your choice??? (Rhetorical question)
My comments are not intended to denigrate anyone, just to promote some serious thought about "perception" of our industry. If we don't think about it seriously, we will end up with many more framing business in our own back yards and that will make it more difficult for any of us to make a living!
Many artists and photographers have gone into framing down here in Australia, yet photographers are always whining about how many photographers there are in business in their area. They just don't think about the fact that there are way too many framers too! Doesn't make much sense!
Perpetuating the Perception
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John
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Perpetuating the Perception
This thought-provoking post was hidden away under (the less than appropriate) Hints and Tips, I hope that Ormond dos not mind this mild bit of moderating.
HOW Much!?
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Framing Norah
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There is little to argue with in the above post.
However this is not the issue, it is one of good manners.
This is not an appropriate response to someone (and especially a newcomer) who is seeking advice on a particular framing problem.
Consider the attitude of the US "Grumblers". Dermot's link pointed to a detailed post, complete with photographs and diagrams, setting out in easy steps how to make a double-sided frame. This post was totally gratuitous, no one had asked for the advice, it was freely given. There were no warnings that photographers, or other newcomers, should not attempt such an advanced job or that they should instead leave it to experienced framers who know what they are doing.
Contrast this with Osmond's response to someone seeking advice on the same subject. Spot the difference? Perhaps this helps to explain why the OZ forum is such a thriving community of picture framers, and the US Grumble is now kaput. Oops, I may have I got that last bit wrong?
Is it not ironic that someone who
steals other's framing ideas (and don't we all) presumes to offer such patronising and ill-considered advice
However this is not the issue, it is one of good manners.
This is not an appropriate response to someone (and especially a newcomer) who is seeking advice on a particular framing problem.
Consider the attitude of the US "Grumblers". Dermot's link pointed to a detailed post, complete with photographs and diagrams, setting out in easy steps how to make a double-sided frame. This post was totally gratuitous, no one had asked for the advice, it was freely given. There were no warnings that photographers, or other newcomers, should not attempt such an advanced job or that they should instead leave it to experienced framers who know what they are doing.
Contrast this with Osmond's response to someone seeking advice on the same subject. Spot the difference? Perhaps this helps to explain why the OZ forum is such a thriving community of picture framers, and the US Grumble is now kaput. Oops, I may have I got that last bit wrong?
Is it not ironic that someone who
steals other's framing ideas (and don't we all) presumes to offer such patronising and ill-considered advice
to someone with the skills, means, and will to fabricate his own moulding!osgood wrote:consider sending the job out to a framer who knows how to do it correctly?...
My advice is to stick to photography!
FN
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osgood
Framing Norah,
It's a great shame that you have absolutely no idea how to tell the difference between "good manners" and a typical Aussie sense of humour.
Just so as you do know, the comment I made "just consider it stolen" is actually "humour". Lance happens to be a good friend and the two of us very often indulge in some good natured stirring of each other, which is intended to make people who don't know us, (such as yourself) do a double take and think we are seriously hostile.
Your erroneous comment about Oz forum and US grumble just shows that you have very little knowledge in that area and so perhaps it would have been wiser not to have made any comment at all. I do have a lot of knowledge on both so if you have any questions, please ask!
As you cannot hear my tone of voice or hear the way those words would have been spoken in my answer to the opriginal question, you have jumped to a conclusion about my post that is incorrect. If someone does not have the knowledge or skill to do a certain task, isn't it reasonable to get someone else to do it until they have enough practise and knowledge to do it themselves??? I would have thought so!
Struth....talk about misinterpretations!!! Is everyone up there in the "Land of The Pom" so humourless that you need everything explained? And you have the worlds best funny people too! Barker, Cleese, etc.
Speaking of misinterpretations, Norah, I remind you of this:
http://estlite.scenes.biz/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=672
It's a great shame that you have absolutely no idea how to tell the difference between "good manners" and a typical Aussie sense of humour.
Just so as you do know, the comment I made "just consider it stolen" is actually "humour". Lance happens to be a good friend and the two of us very often indulge in some good natured stirring of each other, which is intended to make people who don't know us, (such as yourself) do a double take and think we are seriously hostile.
Your erroneous comment about Oz forum and US grumble just shows that you have very little knowledge in that area and so perhaps it would have been wiser not to have made any comment at all. I do have a lot of knowledge on both so if you have any questions, please ask!
Using any form of logic, it is unreasonable to assume that this means someone has the correct knowledge to carry out the remainder and much more important parts of the task in question.to someone with the skills, means, and will to fabricate his own moulding!
As you cannot hear my tone of voice or hear the way those words would have been spoken in my answer to the opriginal question, you have jumped to a conclusion about my post that is incorrect. If someone does not have the knowledge or skill to do a certain task, isn't it reasonable to get someone else to do it until they have enough practise and knowledge to do it themselves??? I would have thought so!
The "stick to photography" advice was designed to save kaptain from having to "think more than he likes"!and has got me thinking more than I like
Struth....talk about misinterpretations!!! Is everyone up there in the "Land of The Pom" so humourless that you need everything explained? And you have the worlds best funny people too! Barker, Cleese, etc.
Speaking of misinterpretations, Norah, I remind you of this:
http://estlite.scenes.biz/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=672
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Roboframer
The advice that WAS given (bar the links to The Grumble) was not the best. This is fabric and fairly large, a single mount is insufficient spacing from the glass and IMHO, for any work on fabric, most always is with normal frames, never mind something like this which could 'sag' either way.
What about stretching it or, if this is not possible (maybe the edges need to be shown) some other method of suspending/mounting it? No-one mentioned PREPARATION for framing.
While a fist fight ensues, we have failed to ensure that someone who admits he is inexperienced, commits a cardinal sin and PRACTICES ON SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY.
My advice is to use the Grumble links provided and also search The Grumble archives for more, you'll find some very unusual and creative solutions which will preserve as well as present, and if you want more, or more specific, just ask the question there.
Confused as to where to post this now!!
What about stretching it or, if this is not possible (maybe the edges need to be shown) some other method of suspending/mounting it? No-one mentioned PREPARATION for framing.
While a fist fight ensues, we have failed to ensure that someone who admits he is inexperienced, commits a cardinal sin and PRACTICES ON SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY.
My advice is to use the Grumble links provided and also search The Grumble archives for more, you'll find some very unusual and creative solutions which will preserve as well as present, and if you want more, or more specific, just ask the question there.
Confused as to where to post this now!!
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osgood
No fist fight as far as I'm concerned Robo.
Just trying to explain myself a little more clearly as there has been some misinterpretation of my answer.
I agree entirely with you when you say "commits a cardinal sin and PRACTICES ON SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY."
This is the exact reason for my first answer to kaptain!
I thought that was obvious in my answer, but alas, I did not spell it out in those exact words and I made the huge mistake of incorporating a little wacky humour.....sheeeesh, what an idiot I am to do that!
Just trying to explain myself a little more clearly as there has been some misinterpretation of my answer.
I agree entirely with you when you say "commits a cardinal sin and PRACTICES ON SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY."
This is the exact reason for my first answer to kaptain!
I thought that was obvious in my answer, but alas, I did not spell it out in those exact words and I made the huge mistake of incorporating a little wacky humour.....sheeeesh, what an idiot I am to do that!
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Roboframer
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markw
Lost the plot on this posting - not sure that an abstract sense of humour comes across very well when you dont know the personalities involved - try using a few emoticons to give us all a clue. Osgood - british humour has moved on from Cleese et al - but cleese is a good point - much of his humour is visual - as I am sure, are some of your postings.
The point about perception is important - This is a cheap business to start up and untill we have a system of qualifications that is recognised by the public as a guide to expectation, then we are just lots of individuals trying hard to maintain personal standards.
I think we have to ask ourselves how we train the framers of the future - we dont have an apprenteship scheme in the UK - we might take on a trainee - but as far as I am aware you cant send them off to college to do a city and guilds course - or whatever the equivilent is these days. We are a group of very individual businesses and if we want to improve perception then we have to join together and create proper industry wide training and qualifications.
The point about perception is important - This is a cheap business to start up and untill we have a system of qualifications that is recognised by the public as a guide to expectation, then we are just lots of individuals trying hard to maintain personal standards.
I think we have to ask ourselves how we train the framers of the future - we dont have an apprenteship scheme in the UK - we might take on a trainee - but as far as I am aware you cant send them off to college to do a city and guilds course - or whatever the equivilent is these days. We are a group of very individual businesses and if we want to improve perception then we have to join together and create proper industry wide training and qualifications.
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Framing Norah
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Ah! Now I get it. Sorry if I was a bit slow on the uptake.
So. Let me see...
A new member posts a query on a forum.
The reply: Stick to the day job, leave it to those who know what they are doing.
Hilarious!
Nope, thought I did, but I still don't get it.
Some people have the ability to make a dead parrot funny. Take my word osgood, you are not one of them.
Perhaps you should take your own advice: Stick to framing, and leave the humour to those who can actually be funny.
So. Let me see...
A new member posts a query on a forum.
The reply: Stick to the day job, leave it to those who know what they are doing.
Hilarious!
Nope, thought I did, but I still don't get it.
Some people have the ability to make a dead parrot funny. Take my word osgood, you are not one of them.
Perhaps you should take your own advice: Stick to framing, and leave the humour to those who can actually be funny.
FN
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osgood
Norah,
No, you just don't seem to get it.
Perhaps if you read it carefully again......on second thoughts, don't bother, you probably have your mind made up and no explanations or more reading will change your mind once it's made up.
The humour was in relation to my reply to Lance on The Grumble, NOT to kaptain's topic!
It doesn't appear that you have read or understood the above posts from Robo about practising on someones property either, or my response that indicated that this was my point in the first place in the kaptains topic.
No, you just don't seem to get it.
Perhaps if you read it carefully again......on second thoughts, don't bother, you probably have your mind made up and no explanations or more reading will change your mind once it's made up.
The humour was in relation to my reply to Lance on The Grumble, NOT to kaptain's topic!
It doesn't appear that you have read or understood the above posts from Robo about practising on someones property either, or my response that indicated that this was my point in the first place in the kaptains topic.
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Framing Norah
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- Joined: Fri 18 Feb, 2005 4:03 pm
When you find yourself at the bottom of a great big hole that you have dug for yourself, stop digging.
The rationalisation of your boorish response to a beginners query is doomed to failure.
Stop trying to re-interpret your initial answer.
That was no way to treat a newcomer to the forum and to framing.
Period.
The rationalisation of your boorish response to a beginners query is doomed to failure.
Stop trying to re-interpret your initial answer.
That was no way to treat a newcomer to the forum and to framing.
Period.
FN
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osgood
Norah,
You win!
I cannot argue with someone who brings red herrings into the discussion and treats them as part of the original discussion and who only seems to read a word or two here and there and then makes up their own "story". Perhaps you were a journalist at some time in the past?
I agree that my intial answer could have been worded differently, but I know what my intentions were and unfortunately your opinion of my intent is way off the mark, but then again, we are all entitled to have wrong opinions.
I leave the way for you to have the last word, then perhaps more framing issues can be discussed?
You win!
I cannot argue with someone who brings red herrings into the discussion and treats them as part of the original discussion and who only seems to read a word or two here and there and then makes up their own "story". Perhaps you were a journalist at some time in the past?
I agree that my intial answer could have been worded differently, but I know what my intentions were and unfortunately your opinion of my intent is way off the mark, but then again, we are all entitled to have wrong opinions.
I leave the way for you to have the last word, then perhaps more framing issues can be discussed?
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Framing Norah
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Framing Norah
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- Joined: Fri 18 Feb, 2005 4:03 pm
What ever happened to the Oz forum?osgood wrote:Your erroneous comment about Oz forum and US grumble just shows that you have very little knowledge in that area and so perhaps it would have been wiser not to have made any comment at all. I do have a lot of knowledge on both so if you have any questions, please ask!
FN
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osgood
The old Aussie Grumble was closed down. There were a number of reasons for this.
One of which was a number of hacker attacks on that particular forum website. (Ezboard) Security of the forum data was a real problem.
There were also a series of "forum terrorists" posts, which were not all from the same part of the world and all of the problems resulted in the closing of the forum.
One of which was a number of hacker attacks on that particular forum website. (Ezboard) Security of the forum data was a real problem.
There were also a series of "forum terrorists" posts, which were not all from the same part of the world and all of the problems resulted in the closing of the forum.
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Framing Norah
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osgood
They are a bit scary!
They are people who terrorise forums by abusing people in a very nasty way, with the intent of causing much havoc. They usually pose as having interest in the content of a forum.
Tactics often involve many posts in a short time so that administrators have to watch the forum constantly to delete their posts. Even when their IP address has been banned from the forum, they find ways of getting a different IP address and start all over again.
I once spent many hours over several days coping with that situation, which meant that much of my work didn't get done.Not long after that it was decided to close the Aussie Grumble down.
They are people who terrorise forums by abusing people in a very nasty way, with the intent of causing much havoc. They usually pose as having interest in the content of a forum.
Tactics often involve many posts in a short time so that administrators have to watch the forum constantly to delete their posts. Even when their IP address has been banned from the forum, they find ways of getting a different IP address and start all over again.
I once spent many hours over several days coping with that situation, which meant that much of my work didn't get done.Not long after that it was decided to close the Aussie Grumble down.
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markw
Surely closing down the forum is the very worst thing you can do. A forum should be robust enough to take some flak.
All forums get a bit heated at times - but its not a forum untill opinions are expressed.
My limited experience of the Aussie forum was that you had a few members who seemed to get very distressed because their posts were removed - perhaps it was down to the form of humour used - cross referencing comments on other posts to members who you may have thought understood the slightly bazzar point being made!
The grumble is a very good example of a forum that at times has some very diverse opinions - they seem to shut them out by talking about favourite recipes.
All forums get a bit heated at times - but its not a forum untill opinions are expressed.
My limited experience of the Aussie forum was that you had a few members who seemed to get very distressed because their posts were removed - perhaps it was down to the form of humour used - cross referencing comments on other posts to members who you may have thought understood the slightly bazzar point being made!
The grumble is a very good example of a forum that at times has some very diverse opinions - they seem to shut them out by talking about favourite recipes.
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osgood
Mark,
As I said in a reply above there were a number of issues that factored into the decision to close it down.
If you had seen the "terrorist" posts and the quantity of them, you would understand the difficulty involved. Besides, I had work to so that I could make a living. I wasn't able to spend 24/7 in front of my screen!
It didn't even make any difference when we gave those people access to formal Ezboard notifications about the attacks. In some peoples eyes we were just plain lying. This issue added weight to the decision to close the forum. The forum could not be secured adequately!
We now have a forum on the PPFA Australia website, but unfortunately doesn't get as much use as we would like. We have a public section and a number of PPFA member only, forums. We are starting to add a number of tutorials and articles by prominent teaching framers from around the world in the "Framing University" section that members can access.
Jim Miller has just sent me an article on mounting medals using mylar, that I will be posting in the next couple of days. Jim Miller teaches at trade shows in USA and he is considered an expert on the use of (mylar or Melinex) in framing.
As I said in a reply above there were a number of issues that factored into the decision to close it down.
If you had seen the "terrorist" posts and the quantity of them, you would understand the difficulty involved. Besides, I had work to so that I could make a living. I wasn't able to spend 24/7 in front of my screen!
There were people complaining about their posts being removed and it didn't matter what anyone said, they would not believe any of the moderators when we told them that we hadn't removed them, but many posts, probably hundreds including moderators posts, were lost in several hacker attacks on Ezboard forums.My limited experience of the Aussie forum was that you had a few members who seemed to get very distressed because their posts were removed
It didn't even make any difference when we gave those people access to formal Ezboard notifications about the attacks. In some peoples eyes we were just plain lying. This issue added weight to the decision to close the forum. The forum could not be secured adequately!
Opinions are fine on a forum but heavy, rapid fire, repeated abuse of members and disgusting language are not acceptable.but its not a forum untill opinions are expressed.
We now have a forum on the PPFA Australia website, but unfortunately doesn't get as much use as we would like. We have a public section and a number of PPFA member only, forums. We are starting to add a number of tutorials and articles by prominent teaching framers from around the world in the "Framing University" section that members can access.
Jim Miller has just sent me an article on mounting medals using mylar, that I will be posting in the next couple of days. Jim Miller teaches at trade shows in USA and he is considered an expert on the use of (mylar or Melinex) in framing.
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markw