How fast?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:02 pm

The topic on how much to pay (a GCF) inspired me to ask this.

Obviously time is an issue - but do you set times for yourself and/or your staff - I do. I know what my average (retail) productivity rate is and my framer's rate is nothing like it - after 4 years!

I have target times and I have record times - those records may have been beaten - I've only bothered to go for it once.

I once read in ABT that it may take the average framer, with professional equipment, 20 mins to frame a cheap print. It didn't say if that was with or without a mount. Reading that was deadly for me - I had to go out and halve it, at least, WITH a mount.

Anyway - here are some of my times for average jobs up to around 20 x 16"

Frame as ready made (one off, not batch - with or without mount)
Target time 10-15 mins. Record 6:05 mins (with mount)

Oil on board or pre-stretched canvas
Target 10 - 15. Record - Not yet recorded - but less!

Frame cheap print etc incl single mount.
Target 15 - 20
Add extra mount - Target 20 - 25
Add mount slip - Target 20 - 30 - Record 18:30 (mount slip between double mount)

Lace needlework
Target 15 - 25 - record - 10

Mount print
Target 5 - 10 - record - 3:30

Mount only
Target 2 - 5 - record 1.05

Miscellaneous jobs

14 photo frames 6x4" & 7x5" mixed - 35 mins

3 prints framed identically with mount slips - glass size 16 x 14" - one hour exactly - retail productivity rate £145:65 per hour (cost of job IOW)

All jobs timed from picking up order to stamping back board.

My framer gets no more pay rises - bar inflation linked until he meets the targets; if and when he gets a record - he gets a SERIOUS pay rise!

I've no idea how this compares - maybe I'm slow and do not deserve the title 'Roboframer' - If it is exceptionally fast then maybe I'm being unfair on my framer (but God he's slow)

Wharrayareckon?

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 23 Nov, 2006 6:40 pm

Merlin Framers wrote:
Roboframer, I have read your 'How Fast' topic and I am not quite sure of the point you are trying to make. Maybe if you wanted a reply you should have posted it on the 'Guiness Book of Records' Forum - if there is such a beast.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit!

Not trying to make any point, just ask a few questions.

Do you know the average time each type of job takes, or should? I think it's important.

If so, how do my times compare?

If not do they seem about right?

Not your average framer · Thu 23 Nov, 2006 10:24 pm

Hi John,

Whilst I can probably come close on times for some tasks, having had a heart attack almost two years ago I'm rarely in that much hurry. However, that being said I'm amazed that you can lace a 20" x 16" needlework job in 10 minutes. I'd be interested in knowing how. I lace onto 5mm foam core and use "T pins" to hold it in place before getting my wife to do the lacing. Just doing the T pins bit takes me 15 - 20 minutes.

BTW how much do you charge for lacing that size of needlework, we charge £25 which includes the foam core. We also automatically specify a double mount using Artcare mountboard and find that most customers are happy to go along with this.
Cheers,
Mark

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 23 Nov, 2006 10:59 pm

Well I don't use foamcore to lace - I don't think it's got enough give - if it bends too much it 'snaps' and I like it to bend a bit - gives a bit more 'tug' when flattened out!

I just use 4 ply artcare board, ultra thick over about 18 x 18" and always for a tapestry (or needlepoint if you prefer) or two sheets bonded together - depends on how my offcut bin is looking!

I don't pin all round with 'T' pins either - not as in poking out from the sides - the crotchet cotton (or whatever) never fails to get tangled around the B******s.

Instead I put 'T' pins in the FRONT of the board, not many and right at the edge, at a very shallow angle - then it's off to go!

I don't suppose my 'record' was actually 20 x 16" - "up to" - I should have noted what size it actually was, but I do know I laced a piece on linen as a demo to a local embroiderers' guild in 10 mins that was 18 x 14", talking as I went.

As for cost - I have not got my 'ye olde price chart' handy, but I think it's £22 for a 20 x 16

markw · Post by **markw** » Thu 23 Nov, 2006 11:53 pm

20"x16" - 10"x8" it would take me extra time to convert them into metric first - come on its the 21st century,. use metric measurements.

I can frame quickly - I choose not too. Having said that I have my workshop organised so that I can work efficiently - we all know that come the end of a busy day we sometimes have to get our fingers out and get the job done. My personal preferance is to get customers to make their decisions quickly - I dont rush them, but I do hate customers who cant make a decision. I spent an hour + on Tuesday helping a customer choose a frame for a map. Job was for customers daughter - fed all details into Preview and emailed customers daughter with images prices recomendation for uv filter glass etc - the lady comes in next day and says daughter has changed her mind - can she take the map back - could i make a box to protect it

two hours wasted - certainly could have cut a lot of mounts, made a few frames, had a coffee. fortunatley this is an exception but I do spend a lot of time every day doing everything except framing.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 24 Nov, 2006 12:39 am

Sorry about the imperial - I just can't relate to metric.

Sure my morso is calibrated in metric, but it's just numbers to me and I don't have to relate.

My mountcutter and maxi-slasher can be read metric or imperial - I prefer imperial.

I measure customers' artwork in imperial and 95% of them use imperial themselves.

Our road distances and speedometers are imperial - and we understand MPG not KPL - so are we a metric country?

The speeds I work at are borne of neccessity - you can't rush some things of course and there can be drying times for such things as nori paste to take into account - but then you can be starting another job while that is drying, so the clock stops on that job until you pick it up again.

Knowing how long things take means I can look at a batch of jobs and think - right - I'll get that done by 5 easy - or I can pull out all the stops and have it done by 3 with a bit of sweat - do the same to the next batch and get a day ahead - use that day for that nasty shadowbox, take a day off, frame stuff for the shop etc etc.

Having the workshop orgainised logically is a must - my bench is 6 x 12' and I used to do about 12 laps per frame, now it's one!

It's not really speed at all really - unless I want to really go for it, it's haste and being methodical.

If I chose not to do things as quickly as I could - the work would simply pile up and my turnaround time would get longer and longer, therefore the busier we get the faster we must be if we want to keep to that one-week turnaround, which I am presently still doing alone with minimal overtime.

Even framed 4 things for the shop today!!!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 24 Nov, 2006 11:05 pm

Roboframer wrote:
I don't suppose my 'record' was actually 20 x 16" - "up to" - I should have noted what size it actually was, but I do know I laced a piece on linen as a demo to a local embroiderers' guild in 10 mins that was 18 x 14", talking as I went.

Aha! Of course I am talking 'glass size' take the mount away and the needlework that has been timed is not very big.

But next time I do one with an IMAGE size of around 20 x 16 I'll let you know how long it took.

Not much of it in at the mo'

Not your average framer · Fri 24 Nov, 2006 11:42 pm

Roboframer wrote: I don't suppose my 'record' was actually 20 x 16" - "up to" - I should have noted what size it actually was, but I do know I laced a piece on linen as a demo to a local embroiderers' guild in 10 mins that was 18 x 14", talking as I went.

I always tell my customers it's not easy and takes ages to do. If I had to do a demo I'd make it last longer than that. People like to think that their getting a long fiddly job for their money! I also think that an element of mystery about how you do it is good for business.
Mark

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 25 Nov, 2006 12:29 am

Well your element of mystery is lost in the back of most cross stitch magazines! Also I don't want it to be a mystery that I am doing it properly - as I am in a minority - we all know that most staple or use some sort of adhesive - the advice in CONSUMER mags is better than what some 'proffesionals' are doing and if you look in the lion catalogue, and others' - you'll see many reasons why they are doing it!

(Welcome to the forum Martin Harold BTW - and why do you advocate copydex and carpet tape for needlework - it's BAAAAAAAD practice)

Trouble is that while the actual LACING diagrams in these X Stitch mags are OK - the rest of the advice is crap! I'm out to put things straight and spread the word - I'm a born-again conservationist...........................

"Aaaaaaaah have seeeeeen the light mah brothers an' sisters, an it has faaaaaaaaaaaaay-did mah pitchers.... lemee hear ya'll say ZEOLITES.... lemme hear ya'll say MICROCHAMBERS - oh yeah"

I actually tell my customers it's a piece of p***! but it takes time.

I tell them that if they are clever enough to produce such a 'lovely piece' then they are more than capable of lacing it. Most are not interested - they want any work THEY do to be SEEN - not hidden. It's boring; many that do try it either can't get it square or have difficulty cutting the support to size. Some get quite adept though.

It's no worse than an artist bringing in a watercolour s/he has mounted him/herself - overcuts, wavy bevels - masking tape all round - you know the score - if they MUST do it themselves, why not educate them and do yourself some favours in the process?

My demo was part of a 45 minute talk/demo on needlework framing to the Worthing embroiderers' guild - the chairwoman is a very good customer, so were some of her members, some were in our own needlwork club (where I REGULARLY demo lacing etc - last Friday of each month - like tonight - finished at 10 pm) more still received our newsletter.

Now they ALL are - customers/members/newsletter subscribers ... and they have FRRRRRRRRRRRRIENDSSSSSSSSSSS !!!

I covered preparation, conservation and design - mainly - and opened a lot of eyes - 60 present. 60 that had had it drilled into them that NEEDLEWORK SHOULD NEVER BE FRAMED WITH GLASS ...

Now I'm geting loads in from them, and friends, to glaze - and for those that really hate the reflection and even more the fuzz of non reflective crap - I'm shifting museum glass to, at almost £30 per sq ft!

Nothing wrong with raising awareness - I'd much rather they saved on preparation and then upgraded the frame/glass/design.

At the talk I heard, many times "Well Acme framers said staples/copydex (etc) and no glass was fine"

Check it - innit!

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.ph ... broiderers

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Sat 25 Nov, 2006 7:44 am

Sometimes I despair.

In the past some newcomers to the forum have been made to feel less than welcome, but to come under attack before even making your first post is hardly an encouragement to participate.

We have had endless posts about how the establishment shuns the forum, yet when someone of stature within the trade comes along some fool only sees it as an opportunity for a pot shot.

Fortunately I am not one of those fundamentalist zealots who insist on museum quality framing on all needlework, and who try to shout down anyone who says otherwise. So of course carpet tape has a place in my workshop, alongside all the conservation products that I use, and I resent some clown inferring that I am a bad framer because of it.

So Martin, welcome, I hope you do participate in the forum. Your company gives framers a great service, however from time to time you are bound to get the odd complaint here (genuine one I mean).

In the days before the Internet, the Lion catalog was surely the best single source of information for framers. I know I learned a lot from it when I was starting out, and still do.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 25 Nov, 2006 9:44 pm

I have a habit of saying what I think as I think it - sometimes I can be a bit tactless and others I can be totally so.

But I don't think I've actually called anyone here anything.

I am not a fool!

The question I asked was a fair one, but in the wrong place and time maybe, so I'll elaborate ....

Framing Norah wrote:
In the days before the Internet, the Lion catalog was surely the best single source of information for framers. I know I learned a lot from it when I was starting out, and still do.

I agree and this is exactly my point - framers new and old look up to the likes of Lion. So if they state that their tape, adhesives and MDF is good for needlework and describe how to use it, they should make sure that they qualify the info by saying that it is not recommended for intricate and/or valuable work. Otherwise it could become some framers' default for ALL needlwork - and indeed it has done.

Anyway, I love Lion and have said as much here many times - I invited them here along with others in the 'thinking out loud' topic and maybe that is why Martin has registered.

I also posted his very positive reply to my email and from that you can see that he is interested in what we think, so he's got some feedback straight away and I would not call it negative at all. It was/is not a complaint or a pot shot; it was a question and a pertinent one, as Lion have several excellent pages devoted to conservation materials that do not include needlework.

Tape and any form of adhesive on needlework - ANY needlework - in my book and many others' IS bad practice. The alternative is just as easy with practice and more effective. If that makes some think I and others are fundamentalist zealots (I'll google that later!) and a clown (which I don't have to google!) TOUGH! it's just simple fact - there are good ways and there are bad ways - I don't see a reason to do it the bad way.

It follows - in my book - that those that do are bad framers - sometimes -and I won't infer it - I'll say it! If I can be called a fool - why not!

I'll tell you what I 'resent' for the record too - people that, in response to comments on inanimate objects, have personal digs at the PEOPLE that make them

At one time there were excuses for including things in the frame package that would, over time, self destruct and methods that would not last.

Those excuses were ignorance and lack of better product.

No excuses these days --- I hate the look of a brown bevel on a mount and would not hide the acids that make it go brown, or worse, inside the frame.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Sun 26 Nov, 2006 8:08 pm

Calm down girls. I like to work at my own pace, pull my finger out when necessary; stay on late or go in early. That's what being independently self-employed is all about; unlike the 9 - 5 office workers who secretly, and some have said, would rather do my job. Couldn't stand the pace could they. Still something faintly glamourous and mysterious about what we do it seems. I have a frame shop and gallery, also a home studio where I can cut a few mounts, or do intricate work as and when I choose, watch a bit of telly, post on this forum, or whatever and go back to work if I feel like it. No pressure.

beth · Post by **beth** » Mon 27 Nov, 2006 12:18 pm

Some jobs go smoothly and be done quickly others however can be a complete mare.

I have found doing everything in batch form is the quickest way for me.
The framing is quickest element of the picture framing business, helping and advising the customer can take huge amount of time, working out quotes, ordering, dealing with dodgy moulding, the paper work etc... Take up much more time.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Mon 27 Nov, 2006 6:13 pm

Like Beth, I work in small batches of different jobs. Never one at a time. Some take longer than anticipated or you come across a time- taking complication.
I don't mind spending time with customers. Some take far longer than others. Gentle, patient and firm. The trick is not to let them loose on the framing board, that's fatal. I have seen this in other framer's over the years. You tend to loose control over your customer.
The real pain is when you spend absolutely ages; then get a phone call next day.' I was just wondering if I could change my mind' etc.
Pisses you off for a moment , then, o'well plenty of other pebbles on the beach.

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