I started out using nothing but plastic - it was awful. The product has moved on a long way since those days - but i still dont like it.
Plastic mouldings make even less environmental sense now - unless someone can tell me that its produced using recycled materials.
I am not sure how Dermot can use the comparison between the hand finishing of mouldings and mass produced factory finished moulding - some of the best framers around are still based upon hand finished mouldings relying on their ability to add a high value to relatively cheap material.
customers do weigh frames - they weigh them up in a nanosecond and nine times out of ten they will pick out the poorly finished and the cheap looking frames.
Ime not going to compete with the factory framer so my difference is quality and plastic just doesnt come into that zone.
Plastic mouldings revisited.
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Not your average framer
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I have just had a quick look at a frame that we made in November. Fletchers framers ponts are firmly stuck in, the gummed tape is still strongly stuck to the back and it looks as good as a similar frame made of wood.
However, my concerns are the same as yours and that is the customers perception. Some of these will have fitted kitchens made from MDF covered in paper, clothes and soft furnishings made from synthetic fabrics that they have possibly paid high prices for. They drive cars with synthetic wood trim other industries sell the benefits of new materials to their customers, ours seems to run down new developments instead of extolling their virtues. Is it the customers that view polymer mouldings as a bad thing or is it us older framers being reluctant to try new products?
Robin
However, my concerns are the same as yours and that is the customers perception. Some of these will have fitted kitchens made from MDF covered in paper, clothes and soft furnishings made from synthetic fabrics that they have possibly paid high prices for. They drive cars with synthetic wood trim other industries sell the benefits of new materials to their customers, ours seems to run down new developments instead of extolling their virtues. Is it the customers that view polymer mouldings as a bad thing or is it us older framers being reluctant to try new products?
Robin
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markw
Robin
I think the comments about plastic just highlight the variations in quality available - and that many framers have only experienced the poorer quality product. This doesn't change my opinion about many plastic frames - I wouldn't buy them because they look cheap and tacky - same finish on wood would probably look as bad.
A lot of the better end product is only supplied in contract lengths and I don't want a couple of hundred metres of any moulding.
I think the comments about plastic just highlight the variations in quality available - and that many framers have only experienced the poorer quality product. This doesn't change my opinion about many plastic frames - I wouldn't buy them because they look cheap and tacky - same finish on wood would probably look as bad.
A lot of the better end product is only supplied in contract lengths and I don't want a couple of hundred metres of any moulding.
I guess "not as good as timber" has been covered in subsequent posts - to me it was an observation early on when a large synthetic framed unit can back in an unsatisfactory state - we replaced it, got rid of the synthetics and retained a good customer!
I'm aware the synthetic quality has improved over the years and contributors here have shown there is a place in their business for synthetic products - it prompts me to revisit the issue
We group our moulding samples by colour and have found it to be satisfactory from a customer point of view. I once toyed with the idea of having mouldings grouped in gold, silver and bronze categories to use the olympic concept of acknowledging winners, but didn't go down that route because people likes bargains!!! We stayed with the colour groupings and endeavour to upsell wherever possible
Ross
I'm aware the synthetic quality has improved over the years and contributors here have shown there is a place in their business for synthetic products - it prompts me to revisit the issue
We group our moulding samples by colour and have found it to be satisfactory from a customer point of view. I once toyed with the idea of having mouldings grouped in gold, silver and bronze categories to use the olympic concept of acknowledging winners, but didn't go down that route because people likes bargains!!! We stayed with the colour groupings and endeavour to upsell wherever possible
Ross
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Framing Norah
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kev@frames
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kev@frames
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Re Nora- plastic and conservation: this is another area that hasn't had much coverage.kev@frames wrote:lol
My "instinct" is to agree, depending on the type of plastic (after all polymers are widely used in the museum and photographic industries).
Cue the polymer expert ..... ! (White lab coat optional, eagerly awaiting the boffin to enter stage left)
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Roboframer
Well these are the words of someone qualified...Framing Norah wrote:Would not plastic not be the automatic choice of anyone serious about conservation?
"As pestilenial as plastics may seem in our environment, in museum collections, they are properly regarded as being unstable and difficult to maintain.
Wood and metal are far more stable, in the long term"
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osgood
I don't know what is available in your country, bu there are many down here that do not look "cheap and tacky". Hopefully, in the future some of your suppliers will provide you with some better finishes.markw wrote:Robin
I think the comments about plastic just highlight the variations in quality available - and that many framers have only experienced the poorer quality product. This doesn't change my opinion about many plastic frames - I wouldn't buy them because they look cheap and tacky - same finish on wood would probably look as bad.
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osgood
Interesting quote!Roboframer wrote: "As pestilenial as plastics may seem in our environment, in museum collections, they are properly regarded as being unstable and difficult to maintain.
Wood and metal are far more stable, in the long term"
Wonder who it was that uttered those words?
Also wonder exactly what the "instability" and "difficulty to maintain" is that they refer to?
Also wonder what period of time the the problems occur?
Also wonder is this a widely held opinion or just the opinion of this one person?
Also wonder what dictionary "pestilenial" is from? It's not in at least five online dictionaries!
I guess there are many questions to answer about many products that we use.
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Roboframer
Perhaps he meant 'Pestilential' - (Troublesome) if I spelled it right.
It was Hugh Phibbs on a parrallel topic on TFG which I think is done and dusted now - anyway click HERE to read.
Most there speak positively about plastic mouldings, but as I said there, a lot are maybe conspicuous by their silence.
Whatever - each to their own eh? - I'd not knock anyone that sells nothing but and don't expect to get knocked for disliking them.
It was Hugh Phibbs on a parrallel topic on TFG which I think is done and dusted now - anyway click HERE to read.
Most there speak positively about plastic mouldings, but as I said there, a lot are maybe conspicuous by their silence.
Whatever - each to their own eh? - I'd not knock anyone that sells nothing but and don't expect to get knocked for disliking them.
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osgood
He spelled it wrong by the looks of his post. Not your fault, John.
Jim Miller's response is worth repeating here:
"Mr. Phibbs' comments about frames used in museum collections are well taken, but the priorities differ in some ways for my retail framing business -- probably for your retail framing business, too.
Museums often use hand-carved or hand-finished, closed-corner frames, which cost a great deal more than most of my frames, and may be as collectible as the art they contain. Some of them were made by artists to compliment their art, or commissioned with unique design requirements. As such, some frames found in museums may be considered works of art in their own right.
Whether collectible or not, I guess museum frames do not live an easy life. They are surely handled, stored, refitted, and transported considerably more often than typical consumer-owned frames. It makes sense that the ability to repair and refinish them is important in museums.
Poly mouldings are not generally used to make unique or closed corner frames, although there are a few exceptions (Munn, for example). In any case, I can see how it would be more difficult to maintain a poly frame in the museum environment.
It is notable that the production-applied finishes on many wood frames are similar to poly moulding finishes, and equally difficult or impossible to repair. Indeed, the popular faux finishes on wood mouldings might just as easily be applied to poly mouldings.
From the preservation framing standpoint, I believe a sturdy poly moulding, with its rabbet sealed by metal tape, would be entirely suitable for preservation framing at the consumer level, in normal ambient conditions. Lining the rabbet with metal tape provides an absolute barrier against whatever chemicals might migrate into the frame package, whether from wood or plastic. Poly mouldings are less tolerant of high temperatures than wood or aluminum, but that is not normally an issue.
The structural integrity of poly mouldings is less than similar-sized wood mouldings. That is, poly is more flexible than wood, and may be more easily broken by impact. Proper design, construction, and fitting generally take care of these issues.
Most of my customers are consumers who do not want to buy museum-type frame mouldings for their homes and offices. All things being equal in terms of preservation, my customers are less concerned about durability or repairability, and more concerned about appearance and price.
Yes, poly mouldings are different than wood and metal frames, and that is OK with me. Considering the advantages of poly mouldings in my business, those differences are insignificant."
And Bob Carter's last line is worthy of a mention:
"If it doesn't appeal or fits your needs, no problems"
Jim Miller's response is worth repeating here:
"Mr. Phibbs' comments about frames used in museum collections are well taken, but the priorities differ in some ways for my retail framing business -- probably for your retail framing business, too.
Museums often use hand-carved or hand-finished, closed-corner frames, which cost a great deal more than most of my frames, and may be as collectible as the art they contain. Some of them were made by artists to compliment their art, or commissioned with unique design requirements. As such, some frames found in museums may be considered works of art in their own right.
Whether collectible or not, I guess museum frames do not live an easy life. They are surely handled, stored, refitted, and transported considerably more often than typical consumer-owned frames. It makes sense that the ability to repair and refinish them is important in museums.
Poly mouldings are not generally used to make unique or closed corner frames, although there are a few exceptions (Munn, for example). In any case, I can see how it would be more difficult to maintain a poly frame in the museum environment.
It is notable that the production-applied finishes on many wood frames are similar to poly moulding finishes, and equally difficult or impossible to repair. Indeed, the popular faux finishes on wood mouldings might just as easily be applied to poly mouldings.
From the preservation framing standpoint, I believe a sturdy poly moulding, with its rabbet sealed by metal tape, would be entirely suitable for preservation framing at the consumer level, in normal ambient conditions. Lining the rabbet with metal tape provides an absolute barrier against whatever chemicals might migrate into the frame package, whether from wood or plastic. Poly mouldings are less tolerant of high temperatures than wood or aluminum, but that is not normally an issue.
The structural integrity of poly mouldings is less than similar-sized wood mouldings. That is, poly is more flexible than wood, and may be more easily broken by impact. Proper design, construction, and fitting generally take care of these issues.
Most of my customers are consumers who do not want to buy museum-type frame mouldings for their homes and offices. All things being equal in terms of preservation, my customers are less concerned about durability or repairability, and more concerned about appearance and price.
Yes, poly mouldings are different than wood and metal frames, and that is OK with me. Considering the advantages of poly mouldings in my business, those differences are insignificant."
And Bob Carter's last line is worthy of a mention:
"If it doesn't appeal or fits your needs, no problems"
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Not your average framer
- Posts: 11008
- Joined: Sat 25 Mar, 2006 8:40 pm
- Location: Devon, U.K.
- Organisation: The Dartmoor Gallery
- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
Unstable? Yes, the plasticisers in many plastics (and adhesive tapes) can escape, disperse or out-gas with time. This is one of the reasons why plastic items become brittle with age and at least some self adhesives fail with age, but where does the escaping plasticiser go and can it affect the conservation of the artwork?Roboframer wrote: Well these are the words of someone qualified...
"As pestilenial as plastics may seem in our environment, in museum collections, they are properly regarded as being unstable and difficult to maintain.
Wood and metal are far more stable, in the long term"
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Framing Norah
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Imagine for a moment the situation being reversed: - Pictures have been framed in plastic from time imemorium. It’s the only way we know.
Now imagine trying to introduce the notion of using wood as a framing material.
(Such an attempt would surely be rebuffed robustly by highly qualified people quoting actual cold hard facts, not just a single anonymous, misspelled, and highly emotive quote from “someone qualified”.)
What would it take to convince the average framer to change to the more expensive, more acidic, and less consistent timber frames?
Now imagine trying to introduce the notion of using wood as a framing material.
(Such an attempt would surely be rebuffed robustly by highly qualified people quoting actual cold hard facts, not just a single anonymous, misspelled, and highly emotive quote from “someone qualified”.)
What would it take to convince the average framer to change to the more expensive, more acidic, and less consistent timber frames?
FN
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markw
FN - its a good way to turn the argument on its head - If the plastic mouldings were all of consistently good quality. The simple fact is that many plastic mouldings fail to join well - or have good cutting qualities. They use a precious resource to manufacture that goes brittle with age and you end up with a material that is difficult to recycle.
I doubt that I am out of touch with available mouldings but I have only seen a handfull of plastic mouldings on offer to me as a bespoke framer who never buys more than a few lengths of any moulding. I am sure the choice of plastic would be different if I was mass producing frames when I would probably invest in the neccesary kit for cutting and joining.
I am not using this argument because i havent used plastic - I have. I recently had to make up an order for a customer who supplied several lengths of fairly large profile plastic moulding + the recommended glue - it was a pig to cut and dismal to join ( Morso + Casesse Pneumatic underpinner). This may well have just been a bad batch but it had the same characteristics as the plastic I used years ago - bit like joining crunchy bars.
I doubt that I am out of touch with available mouldings but I have only seen a handfull of plastic mouldings on offer to me as a bespoke framer who never buys more than a few lengths of any moulding. I am sure the choice of plastic would be different if I was mass producing frames when I would probably invest in the neccesary kit for cutting and joining.
I am not using this argument because i havent used plastic - I have. I recently had to make up an order for a customer who supplied several lengths of fairly large profile plastic moulding + the recommended glue - it was a pig to cut and dismal to join ( Morso + Casesse Pneumatic underpinner). This may well have just been a bad batch but it had the same characteristics as the plastic I used years ago - bit like joining crunchy bars.
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Roboframer
No no no Norah - it's you that's anonymous.... not Hugh Phibbs, who is qualified, up to the hilt and the last thing he is is emotive!
There's lots of things that had we been doing for ever we may not change - lot's also that had we not been doing for ever, we would not start doing ....
Imagine Walter Raliegh if he had a mobile link back to the monarchy
"Found this great plant your highness"
"What's it called?"
"Tobacco"
"Oh yeah - what's it do?"
"Well. you dry it out and shred it all up, then roll it up in some paper....."
"Man, that must taste pretty bad"
"No - no you don't eat it "
"So what DO you do with it Walt - stick it up your nose?"
"Well, you set fire to it and inhale the fumes ........."
CLICK!!! The guy's a nutter!
There's lots of things that had we been doing for ever we may not change - lot's also that had we not been doing for ever, we would not start doing ....
Imagine Walter Raliegh if he had a mobile link back to the monarchy
"Found this great plant your highness"
"What's it called?"
"Tobacco"
"Oh yeah - what's it do?"
"Well. you dry it out and shred it all up, then roll it up in some paper....."
"Man, that must taste pretty bad"
"No - no you don't eat it "
"So what DO you do with it Walt - stick it up your nose?"
"Well, you set fire to it and inhale the fumes ........."
CLICK!!! The guy's a nutter!
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Dermot
For my sin in another life I sold polymer test equipment….I got to know the polymer industry quite well……….I still subscribe to one of the main polymer publicationsNot your average framer wrote: Unstable? Yes, the plasticisers in many plastics (and adhesive tapes) can escape, disperse or out-gas with time.
Most of the products I currently sell in my business are made of polymers…..some of which I spec into the electronics and heath care manufacturing sectors…….out gassing with most plastics is not a problem…..
……..for the life of me I’m trying to figure out what plastic materials either moulding, glazing or encapsulation that could or are used in the picture framing industry out gas……perhaps you could enlighten me!!!!!......and point me in the direction of the studied that support your statement…
The subject of adhesives is an entirely separate, science and subject, to plastics and to equate the possible situations with adhesives and plastics that are or can be used in the picture framing industry is a bit disingenuous….