Researching CMCs

[GeoSpectrum]

Im begining the task of researching CMCs with the aim of purchasing/renting one at some statge this year as I work towards going full time. I will hopefully be attending the Spring Fair to see them in action but I have a number of questions for the experts in the mean time.

I have read that the Trucut CMCs are also board cutters, I assume this means backing board. Is this true of the others (Gunnar, Valiani, Wizard)?

I'll need to get a compressed air set up so will probably upgrade from manual point drivers to compressed air ones at the same How do I select the correct capacity compressor for a cmc, point drives and possibly a compressed ait under pinner.

Due to space reasons Ill need to mount the CMC against a wall, the Wizard has wall brackets, do the others?

I want to be able to cut 90 degree edges on mounts, is there a significant advantage in the Gunnar F1 Hybrid over the Wizard where you have to change the cutter to do this?

Rent/Lease/buy?

New/reconditioned?

Many thanks for thoughts on the above.

[Jonny2morsos]

I think you will get a lot of feedback from users of the various makes of machines but you do need to "test drive" them.

The latest Valiani CMCs have interchangeable heads to achieve the 90 degree outside cut but this is only really needed if you are making mounts to sell as mounts only. A bevel cut edge to the mount does not matter if you are going to be putting the mount in a frame.

I thought about getting the upright stand (for space saving) when we bought our Valiani but was reminded that you need to stand in front and collect the fall outs as they are cut.

Do think about your future needs as you will want a compressor to power all of your equipment. Suppliers will advise you if you let them know what you want to run from one compressor.

[Trinity]

My Wizard takes up 1340 x 1880 on plan whereas my last one (wall mounted) sat over 300 x 1880. I had to re- jiggle everything but glad that I went for the horizontal mode (slight incline) because of the drop out issue. I still find myself watching it though as there's not much I can do in the seconds it takes to cut!
I went the reconditioned, straight payment route, with considerable savings. It's never gone wrong, but doesn't need to earn its keep like some of those used by other framers on the Forum. No regrets, I always say that if the sun falls out of the sky I'll get 40% back in a fire sale, my risk therefore is 60% over 5 years. They don't appear to come down in price.
If I was to rent I might try to agree a purchase figure that diminished as time passed and that I could exercise. Although not tested, I guess the service back up on a leased unit is very good.
I did look at all the alternatives and concluded that there wasn't a bad one among them, and each would do what I wanted. Prices varied and ultimately cost and the deal available will introduce a particular sense of direction. That, and the best fit you have with the sales / support team.
It's very useful to have 45,52 and 90 degree cuts, debossing and a pen tool in your armoury, so try and seek out as near to top of the range that you can in whatever make you decide. Neither advancing Wizards Switchblade Technology or decrying other systems, the swapping of blades on the Wizard isn't an issue, takes seconds, and all blades need changing.
You might also consider the cost of blades, 45's are reasonable, other start to get pricey albeit less used.
Once the decision is made, forget everything about all other contenders, otherwise it gets like hi fi - the best sound always seems to round at your mates house.
Switching metaphors a lot they're all thoroughbreds, all highly tuned and capable of great things.
But you'll no doubt get some real professional advice as well, so best of luck.

[misterdiy]

Well, we did exactly that (research and try). A good time to start looking is now, as the Spring Fair is just around the corner and I would expect most of the CMC companies will be there.

A good way to look at this is to decide what you intend to do. We decided at the outset to be an online supplier of mounts so we were guided as to the type of machine we would need. And since then we have upgraded to a faster machine.

As for compressors, we have a dedicated compressor for the CMC. They are precision machines and don't need any water/impurities in from a bigger machine. We therefore purchased the smallest Bambi 24l brand new for this purpose (our cheapest at the time was Axminster power tools) but CMC's are not demanding on air consumption BUT they do not like pressure drops so you would need to have adequate air available if you were using power tools and underpinners off the same compressor

[Roboframer]

I have read that the Trucut CMCs are also board cutters, I assume this means backing board. Is this true of the others (Gunnar, Valiani, Wizard)?

The Valiani cuts foam board up to 5mm and I suppose it would cut artbak type boards too, but I don't think any cut MDF. I've never used the CMC to cut a frame back but frequently use it for foam board.

[stcstc]

i cut backing, and mount board all the time with my gunnar

i often make standard sized mounts and backs for photographers, so its just waaaay quicker

i nest up say 100 backing boards and just keep feeding sheets in

never tried cutting MDF

[GeoSpectrum]

What would you say, in % terms, do bespoke framers who own CMC's cut most; squares and rectangles (incl doubles) or fancy shapes (ie anything that can't be cut on my Keen Cut Ulitmat Gold. I want most bang for my buck and if most of the time I end up cutting squares and rectangles I might consider a Speed-mat or similar.

[stcstc]

the 2 big differences ignoring all the fancy muck you can do

1. speed, if you cut a lot of mounts, then you will pay for a cmc in no time in terms of time saved

2. consistent quality. no major skill involved in the running, well designing etc. i have my 10 year old son here sometimes and have him cutting mounts and backingboards etc. and they look just like if i cut them

[Graysalchemy]

Steve is right speed and cosistency/quality of cut. Also it is easier to cut the really thick boards though I am not sure if all are able to easily cut 3500m board. I have a trucut with a second set of blades for thick board just a quick change of setting on the machine and a simple change of blades and you are away.

Offering deep cut boards will give you a competitive advantage over other framers and you may also be able to tout for work with galleries who don't have the facility for this as this is the look most galleries want.

[Roboframer]

What would you say, in % terms, do bespoke framers who own CMC's cut most; squares and rectangles (incl doubles) or fancy shapes (ie anything that can't be cut on my Keen Cut Ulitmat Gold.

I'd say 85% squares/rectangles ..... BUT ......!!

Never mind doubles (or triples), they're a doddle on the Ultimat, but how about multiple aperture doubles/triples, maybe with one layer reverse bevelled and maybe with one layer 8 ply? Try that on the ultimat!!

It's do-able, sure, but by the time you've plottted the first few lines with a pencil and ruler the CMC has cut the whole shebang! And if a few rounded corners/ovals/circles/arches/whatever here and there might suit (and definitely impress) - they can be done with total impunity!

Today I had to float mount a large aviation print, signed in the (wide) paper margins by scores of WW2 pilots/crew members. Many of the signatures went right to the edge of the paper, that's why it had to be float mounted, but the customer didn't want to add a 3" or so wide mount to the 4" wide paper margin anyway - that would have looked naff even if it wasn't signed.

So it was floated with just the 5mm frame 'lip' width around it, with pass-through hinges. It wouldn't have been difficult to make the slits for the hinges by hand with a knife, but slits are slits and it's a pain feeding hinges through slits. So I plotted an array of 25x.5 mm (that's 25 millimetres by half a millimetre) apertures 10mm in from the edge of the board top and sides; 25mm in at the bottom. Got the CMC to cut the apertures and then the board to size - and while it was doing it I cut the glass, backing and two sides of the frame! Saved the design - it can be adapted for future similar jobs with ease.

Think back to when you learned to drive, you had to concentrate on what your hands and feet were doing as well as the road ahead. But now it's just the road ahead ........Take the stone, Grasshopper!

[Mike@GTP]

I would say our shop CMC does more than 90% rectangles/squares, but it always does an expert job; and faster. It's also excellent for multi opening jobs, ovals, debossing, vgrooves, and makes setting them up like child's play. We had a time consuming speed-mount type wall cutter until 2004 or so, when we bought the CMC. We would never go back to the manual cutter, at this point.

All the major companies have suitable products, with subtle differences. Some are stronger in the software area, some have more durable hardware, some are designed for heavy production vs light use, some have better support and quality than others, etc. It requires some research, for sure, beyond our opinions. Everyone will be glad to toot the horn for the product they have invested in, so I think it's important to attend a trade show with some pre-researched questions for the salesperson. (UK Spring Fair, WCAF USA, etc) Then you can get a hands-on experience, to see/touch/feel which one is right for you.

That vendor list I produce is meant to just list the available products, basic specs, and contact information for each vendor. It's not intended to be a comparison list, or to recommend one over the other. It was intended for the US market, so it has US prices. The prices may not convert to sterling, because products may be priced higher or lower in the UK. (shipping, customs, etc differences) I dont suggest trusting the prices on my list, if you're in the UK market. Please check with the vendor for the current price. If you see any errors or omissions in that list, please bring it to my attention. I'd love to keep it current.

Happy CMC shopping, and warm regards from the USA!
Mike Labbe
Get The Picture Framing

[GeoSpectrum]

I'm continuing my researh into CMCs. I had a good look at the Valiani, Wizard and Gunnar at the Spring Fair and I am beginning to favor one maker over the other two, however my main question is lease or buy? With leasing the monthly fees for all three appear to be similar at around the £300-£400 per month which, of course, is a lot of mounts! Those of you who lease, did you manage to cover the costs by increasing sales or time savings? if so how long did it take to get up to speed both in producing mounts and seeing some benefit to the business?

Thanks as always.

[stcstc]

i rent/lease

I worked out it was cheaper for me to rent/lease from gunnar and buy the machine after 3-4 years than it was to borrow the money from the bank

as for saving, for me its a huge time saver, which is easy work the rent alone, but the other side is consistency, every mount is the same

[GeoSpectrum]

Thanks for all info so far. Amother couple of questions if you dont mind.

Does anyone bother keeping a 'back up' keencut or Fletcher? CMC's appear to be pretty reliable.

Also, what sort of levels of waste can one expect. I was talking to a framer today who owns a Wizard and they said that as they can not cut right to the edge there is a fair ammount of waste.

Thanks for your help.

[Merlin]

Hi Alan
I purchased my first CMC in 2005 and put the trusty Keencut Gold in storage - Just in case.
I am now on my third CMC and the Keencut stayed in storage. In fact, I sold it just two months ago.

Re the wastage. I speak with my Valiani hat on now...
The clamps on the Valiani range of CMC - non Vacuum - are on the left and the bottom of the cutting table.
Due to a redesign of the clamping system, the wastage is now down to 17mm on both Axis.
On the Valiani Vacuum table - http://valiani.com/computerised_detail.php?ID=9 there is no wastage at all as it cuts right to the edge.

I hope that helps.

[stcstc]

i waste more board now than using manual keencut

BUT

things take waaaaay less time and so the saving is in time and labour

[Graysalchemy]

My trucut with clamps will cut edge to edge no wastage .

Plus you can nest smaller mounts inside bigger ones something I am sure you can do with other machines. Vacuum machines have the advantage of cutting edge to edge but have the disadvantage of loss of vacuum if smaller sheets are used some come with zoned suction so that suction is not lost. The new trucut vacuum machines come with the option of micro clamps as well.

[misterdiy]

Ours is vacuum but we still have a small edge wastage, probably because we dont want the external blade hitting the locator pegs. Also the MB can be slightly damaged on a corner so a crisp cut out is preferable. On the vacuum there is no problem cutting smaller pieces - you just fill the bed with offcuts to seal the vacuum in - simples.

Oh and we sold the keencut over two years ago and never missed it. Also of course you can cut nice thick boards easily (well on most machines ) which are a real pain on manual cutters.

The machine can cut cardboard and artbak but I would not even try mdf.

[GeoSpectrum]

Well the choice of CMC has been made, it’s just a matter of when and still a little bit of 'if'.

Currently I'm in the fortunate position to have a well-paid but part time position that pays the bills and allows me to work on my framing about 50% of the time and would also cover the cost of leasing the CMC. But could I generate enough additional business to justify the cost? The online sale of mounts looks well covered, or maybe there is room for one more?

The quandary I am in is that I am not generating enough business to make full time framing a reality at present. I see having a CMC as an investment for the future but I doubt I could justyfy the commitment if I am only doing bespoke framing.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what sort of online mout sales volume is possible? I have space in the workshop that is crying out to be filled by a CMC!

Aggh!..decisions...decisions....

[Jonny2morsos]

First thing to look at might be the cost of taking your product to market i.e. what is it going to cost you to set up your online presence.

If you look at a few sites they are pretty complex in that the customer has to have the ability to make a lot of choices e.g. outside dimensions, aperture size, border size, equal/unequal borders, one layer/two layer, single/multi aperture, colour, thickness, quantity and there are probably some more. All of this information has to then reach you for you to process the order. Then you need online payments, P&P etc.

The CMC might turn out to be less expensive than your e-commerce site!

Just my thoughts as someone who has gone a certain distance along that road.

As a matter of interest which machine are you favouring?