UV Glass

[John]

I have heard that you can't get a suntan from exposure to the sunlight in your greenhouse, so ordinary glass must filter ultra violet light (which causes tanning).

In light of this (no pun intended), is there really an argument for the use of special, extra UV filtering, glass outside of museums?

[markw]

John - you cant get a sun tan full stop in Northern Ireland - In sunnier climes we are well aware that too much time in the greenhouse would leave you looking like a lobster. try a simple test - get a piece of cheap mountboard - red would be a good colour - place it in a nice sunny spot (if you can find one) cover half with uv filter glass - half with ordianary 2mm float - you will probably notice the difference after a few hours.

[JFeig]

UV glass filters approx 40% of the UV light in the 300-400 nm range (?) . This is the wavelength most damaging to everything.

That means 60% is still going through. Just test a print in the front window of your shop. It fades very easily.

[markw]

according to a spec sheet from Glass & Mirror - Schott Mirogard plus filters 84% UV 300 - 380nm - with the comment that this is the highest achievable without affecting the clarity of the glass. The price tends to put off most customers - unless they see this degree of protection as a wise investment.

[JFeig]

this is the actual figures clipped from the TV site


type transfer reflection uv protection (300-380nm)


Premium Clear 91 8 47
Reflection Control 90 8 53
Anti-Reflective >97 <1 78
Conservation Clear 91 8 >97
Conservation Reflection Control 90 8 >97
Museum Glass >97 <1 >97

[Merlin]

Good topic John
I have had a sheet of TRUVIEW in the shop for over 1 year now. Plus near the design counter a demonstration frame showing 2m Float/TRU VIEW/2mm Diffuse in 75mm wide strips over a picture. Where it is required (IMO that is) Customers are shown the example and given a breakdown of the cost of each.

Cost has always been the reason that the customers do not buy it. I did get this sheet as a 'one off'. The minimum order to deliver here in the SW is 10 sheets. To me that is a lot of money tied up in dead stock.

I do get through - on average - 20 sheets of 2mm Float and 5 sheets of 2mm Diffuse per month so it is not as if my framing numbers are low.

The final cost of the finished article and not the benefits of UV filtering glazing has always dictated whether the customer agrees to the work being done or not.

This will be interesting to hear what other framers experiences are.

[John]

Plus near the design counter a demonstration frame showing 2m Float/TRU VIEW/2mm Diffuse in 75mm wide strips over a picture.

John,

Have you had this demonstration frame on display for a year, and has the picture faded by different amounts under each of the 75mm strips? According to some reports, a few hours is enough for noticable differences to be seen.

I have just set up my own little experiment, but if you can provide the answer, it will no longer be necessary (it would take too long for mine to catch up with yours ).


JFeig,

Sorry if this is a naive question.

What do those figures mean (e.g. Premium Clear 91 8 47)?

[chris collins]

Hi
These are appprox figures
normal glass filters about 40% of UV
Conservation glass filters between 90 - 97% UV depending on the range that is measured ie
300-380 Truvue
300-400 image perfect
As for cost the larger the item the more the customer needs a chair, but on small items, grannies sampler etc. it is easier to sell and most customers with the right items will trade up to UV glass, just make them feel guilty

chris

[Chris]

Sorry
I posted my reply without logging in
got to find my way around
Chris

[SquareFrames]

Hi Folks,

I think like most framers, I have the samples of the differing types of UV glass, but as JohnGCF UK says, cost is the main factor for the customers when they have to choose.

One very simple way round this would be to do away with 2mm float glass altogether, thus making the UV filitered glass the only glass used, this would drmatically bring the price down, but hey! its not that simple and it'll never happen, I dont think anyone would have the gumption to do this. Personally I'd like to see it happen.

The main problem here in good old (cant get a tan) Northern Ireland, is the fact no one stocks it, all orders have to come direct (as far as I know, I do stand to be corrected). I know my own local supplier will not bring it in for fear of his staff delivering it instead of 2mm float. Doesnt say a lot for his staff!

I have spoken to John Palmer of Glass & Mirror and have been assured that a crate of 4 sheets would be the minimum delivery, but I have yet to try that to see. I spoke to Wessex about Image Perfect glass some years ago at a Guild Dinner, and was asked to take a few sheets and distribute it myself, after a few drinks with Len, the few sheets turned out to be 200 ton, I could hardly see my Transit being able to hold 200 ton never mind delivering it nor could I think of a place to store it, but there you have it.

I am very impressed with the Glass & Mirror / Truevue range of glass, I just wish it was easier to get hold of over here. The Denglass Waterwhite and the Mirogard range look excellent, as does the Truevue glass, but 7 x 5 inch samples are not a lot to go on.

At our last Guild Branch meeting (last week) quite a few framers were interested in forming a cooperative and buying a 'Mixed' delivery of Truevue ? Mirogard glass and storing it and splitting the cost, this could prove to be a godsend if we can get it off the ground. Its also a good way to go for framers in other parts of the country, anyone else think so? It has worked for framers in the North of England, so why not everywhere else?

Steven

[markw]

We tend to take easy access to a wide range of products a part of modern life - before Glass and Mirror made getting cut size speciality glass as easy as picking up the phone i always stocked uv filter glass - It has to be treated with great care as it scratches and marks very easily - i wrap all cut pieces in brown paper and store very carefully - Denglass water white is even worse as this has to be kept wrapped in a dry atmosphere - if you dont its a sod to clean. If you are getting in stock of any coated glass check for defects - i have had many over the years and it can be very frustrating to cut an expensive piece of glass only to find it has ascratch or mark in the coating - spotted at delivery it can be sent back.

Its been said that the cost puts off customers - it does, but when someone brings in a delicate watercolour that they treasure, the fact that you can provide a degree of protection from UV damage is much appreciated and willingly paid for. - Its strange, but customers often understand the potential damage caused by UV - but fail to appreciate damage caused by bad framing. I suppose its because its a topical subject - it damages our skin , the planet etc.

[SquareFrames]

Hi Mark,

I totally agree with you with regard a customer and their delicate watercolour and their understanding of potential damage to UV light, etc., but heres what I mean, to bring in a small order of Denglass to Northern Ireland for a framing job of 500 x 400, would cost me in excess of £140.00, maybe a lot more depending on the exact price (I havent got it to hand) for 4 sheets, a lot of money to make up on one small item. But I do understand your point. I would enevitably be looking to make up the cost of the glass on the first order, I dont think I could justify that.

I think its back to the cooperative idea, when I get some more replies from interested framers.

Steven

[JFeig]

I hope your posting that commented on Denglass being £140 minimum was a mis-quote for UV (Tru-Vue Conservation Clear or equiv) since Denglass is not UV filtering for their basic product. Ther is a UV filtering Denglass though.

As a price thing......... When UV glass came out many years ago we did not stock it and therefore did not suggest clients use it. We had the same basic price resistance as you. About 3-4 years we changed our thought pattern and set UV filtering glass as our default glass for all orignal art orders. Once we made the decision in "our minds" we bought a box of each size (4 boxes). It was easier to sell and more profit for the bottom line. This is the same mental decision that one has to make if you want to sell hand gilded frames or any other high end product. This can be a frame, a car or clothing.

Tank the plunge and go for it.

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

It wasnt a misquote, it was a generalisation on better quality glass products, sorry if it offended you! I still got to have it shipped across the Irish sea to where I am, so doesnt matter what it is, there are no stockists here. I know all about Denglass and Truevue products, but no sense knowing about it, when I cant readily get my hands on it. Like I said, I am in negotiations with other framers to form a cooperative and have it shipped and also a wholesaler to stock it, but when all the other wholesalers are loathe to stock what we framers want, what do we do? We can ill afford to have dead stock lying in a corner gathering dust just incase one customer in 50 or 100 decides they want to use it. Its all about cash flow and waste management, dead money is no good to me.

Steven

[Merlin]

Hi John
The glass example demo that we have on the counter is one we acquired from WESSEX and consists of three strips of glass:
75mm of Diffused Glass (Matobel) / 75mm of Museum Image Perfect(Reduced Reflection) Glass / 75 mm of Very Good quality 2mm Float Glass
Over a picture of lemons with one being peeled resting on a branch. There is a triple mount as well.

As I stated it has been on or near the design counter for over one year now.
Your question raised my intrigue especially as the Image Perfect is advertised as giving 99.5% protection from UV light (300 - 400 nanothingies). So this morning I opened the frame up expecting to see three distinct stripes on the picture.

I was very surprised, no stripes and no apparent colour fade on the picture either. Unfortunately I could not part the Mounts to see if their colours had faded.

The shop front has large windows and in the height of summer we do get 4 hours of direct sunlight on them. (and what a pain that is). We did get a UV filter film put onto the inside of the windows. Which does appear to work.

The lighting in the shop is fluorescent tubes with 840 colour daylight rendering.

Not scientific I know, but hope it helps to answer your query.

At £80.25 + VAT a sheet (that is a box of 3 sheets 48" x 36") It does become rather expensive. For those of you who are using it or any UV filtering glass. What mark up are you putting on it please...

[John]

Hey guys,

I started this topic in the hopes of gaining an insight into the process that would convince a free thinking, intelligent, sceptical, picture framer (everybody here fits this description, right?) that the benefits of UV glass are worthwhile at today’s prices.

I know that if I ask the manufacturers they will quote me stuff about wavelengths and nano-meters, but what I was looking for is something more empirical, and John (Merlin) has provided just that, many thanks.

So the question boils down to: -

Do we tell our customer “We can sell you this great glass which costs a couple of zillion per square inch”, the benefits of which, if there are any, he will probably never see in his lifetime? At the same time we can impress him no end by peppering the conversation with a few “wavelengths”, “nano-metres”, etc.

Or, do we tell him “Keep your picture away from direct sunlight”, probably doing more to preserve his picture, but sadly robbing us of the opportunity to impress him with our erudition?

Actually this has set off another train of thought, perhaps it should be a new thread, but has there been any study into the acidity/corrosive effects of various woods? I’m thinking of the long-term corrosion of metal screws or the wedges (v-nails) as they are in contact with the timber. Are some woods less acidic than others? Wouldn’t it be ironic if it turned out that plastic frames had more value in the long-term preservation of art?

[markw]

We know that uv light can have an effect on certain pigments - blocking some of that light must be beneficial. The customer decides how much he/ she wants to spend - we just facilitate. I liked JFIEG's reply-" Once we made the decision in "our minds" we bought a box of each size (4 boxes). It was easier to sell and more profit for the bottom line. This is the same mental decision that one has to make if you want to sell hand gilded frames or any other high end product. This can be a frame, a car or clothing. "
its a matter of selling a better product.
now as for the question regarding different woods - The tannin in oak reacts badly with steel causing the steel to rust and the oak to go black. living in an old cotswold stone cottage with lots of old oak beams its significant that the joints are all held in place with wooden pegs - metal would have disintegrated over the few hundred years they have held together.

[JFeig]

No offense taken. It is just easier for me to know about the products since they are more available here.

Jerry

BTY, I completed my recertification class for CPF yesterday. It is a requirment for the MCPF I plan to take in the spring. So far only 20 have passed the exam.

[JFeig]

As a point of reference I thought I might give you some prices. They are totally irrelevent for you since we do not have VAT nor have to import the product.

LarsonJuhl 1-4 case pricing (36x48 - 4 lites) delivered to back door

regular glass $39.90US
reflection control $84.00US
conservation clear $72.90US
anti-reflective $149.00US - 2 lite box
museum $222.00US 2 lite box


we have a new product in our plex line
it is Optimum® acrylic distributed by TRU-VUE

anti reflective
98% uv filtering
anti scratch

cost $585.00US for a 41" x 71" sheet WOW

[James Miller]

Hey guys,

I started this topic in the hopes of gaining an insight into the process that would convince a free thinking, intelligent, sceptical, picture framer (everybody here fits this description, right?) that the benefits of UV glass are worthwhile at today’s prices.

...Actually this has set off another train of thought, perhaps it should be a new thread, but has there been any study into the acidity/corrosive effects of various woods? I’m thinking of the long-term corrosion of metal screws or the wedges (v-nails) as they are in contact with the timber. Are some woods less acidic than others? Wouldn’t it be ironic if it turned out that plastic frames had more value in the long-term preservation of art?

Good thoughts. Here's what I tell my customers:

The UV-filtering glazing (be it glass or acrylic) that we use removes more than 97% of the most harmful fading light. However, all light is damaging, depending on both duration and intensity, so we recommend limiting light exposure. In any case, our UV-filtering glazings provide the best protection available at any price, against fading from light.

As Jerry pointed out, we in the USA are blessed with very good prices and usually-free delivery of premium glazings. If we had to pay higher prices or shipping costs, or suffer long deliveries, perhaps we wouldn't use them so often.

Regarding plastic mouldings, I use some of them, and I've been asking about chemical compatibility of the extruded polystyrenes for about two years now. So far, few definitive answers have come back, but it seems that plastics are less invasive in framing uses than nearly all woods.

My understanding is that in typical display conditions, the plastics are quite stable. However, in event of high heat -- perhaps as little as 150 degrees Fahrenheit -- the plastic could offgas into the frame, and may affect the contents. Exposure to such temperatures could easily be experienced in storage, or in a moving van, or in event of a fire in the next room.

On the other hand, acrylic glazing has a similar limitation, and most of the board products we use would react to high temperatures in some way. So, a plastic frame moulding may be only one of several concerns in excess-temperature environments.