fitting up large aluminium frames

Art · Post by **Art** » Thu 14 Jun, 2007 10:29 am

anyone out there got any good tips on fitting together large aluminium frames (60" x 40") with glass and fillet.

JFeig · Post by **JFeig** » Thu 14 Jun, 2007 1:10 pm

Unless it is framed with a style that has a double wall vertically in the profile, I would not recommend a metal frame. That would leave out the OEM profile metal frames and the # 11 poster frames etc.

There is just not enough strength in these profiles to support the glass safely.

Art · Post by **Art** » Thu 14 Jun, 2007 1:24 pm

Thanks for your reply
I agree with your suggestion, My real concern is how to fit the glass and fillet
on such a large frame. got any tricks ?

markw · Post by **markw** » Thu 14 Jun, 2007 3:26 pm

I agree with Jerome - you will need a very stable profile - the fact that you are generally relying upon spring clips to hold everything together makes the whole structure less stable.

I would consider using Artshield instead of glass to lighten the weight - and at this size reduce the danger of breakage - Not sure exactly what your describing when you say fillet - assuming you are using this as a spacer? My advice would be to tape the edges of the package - Glass - fillet - media and back board - slide it into your Alu frame - 3 sides complete - slide in fourth side - hope you have room for the spring clips.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 14 Jun, 2007 7:54 pm

I also agree with Jerome and would not even consider using a metal frame on something that size. It is impractical and fraught with danger for you and for your customer.

Adding a fillet to an aluminium frame, especially that size is almost absurd.

A recognised expert in this industry Vivian Kistler uses a great line: "We are framers, not magicians!"
There are no "tricks"!

I won't be the only one to recommend that you rethink this project!

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Thu 14 Jun, 2007 11:02 pm

definitely go for plastic glazing.
judging by the number of these metal frames we get in with broken glass i'd agree with the others that they need careful glazing.

IMLE .... (theres a new one for you lol) .... if you have not cut a perfect piece of glass (an almost invisibly "hooked end) or the slightest rough edge spells doom, and thats where it will crack one day.
great if you want to keep seeing the same frame for reglazing on a regular basis

ive tried all sorts with these, but the best fighting chance is to get a really good fitting piece of glass (definitely not a "rattler") and preferably with the edges smoothed (wet n dry or a stone if you have the time). get a mount in and a good liner board behind it to cushion the glass a bit, praps even a taped old-school "sandwich" to firm it all up, and hopefully if the customer gets it home and on the wall in one piece thats the last you'll see of it.

we get to do these when people move house, many seem to be bought on the internet although they seem to manage to deliver them with glass in unbroken, which is more than I can say for any of the carriers we have ever use!

A pal of mine (framer) swears by a tiny blob of that stuff that we dont mention here (the S word) in each corner. so dont try that if you see what i mean

shame they can cause us these problems, as I really like some of these metal frames. On the other hand, we must be one of the last people on the planet who still have customers who like that wide wood with the aluminium wrap.... I even have some myself

*IMLE = in my limited experience

Post by **prospero** » Fri 15 Jun, 2007 11:47 am

I always assemble ally frames by first making a sandwich of the backing/artwork/glass and wrapping the edges with making tape. The glass should be marginally smaller than the backing board so in theory it should never touch the frame. Glass in this situation usually gets broken
from a shock to the frame. If you can engineer a gap between the frame and glass it will cut down thw chances of this happenning. The frame itself
will flex a lot and not really give support to the glass, but it is amazing just how much a sheet this size will bend.
Run a blade around the edge of the glass to remove any tape so that it will not show from under the rebate. Then fix the frame around it. An additional bonus with this method is that it keeps all the pesky little black flies from getting in. If you hang the pic using fitting on the side rails you risk bowing of the frame, so try using inverted keyhole fixings on the top rail, close to the corners. The actual corner fixings on this type of frame are very stong and will easily support the weight.

If the ally moulding is a really deep profile then you might consder making a wooden sub-frame from 4"x3/4" timber and use half-lap joints on the corners. This will make the whole thing very stable but it will make the job very heavy.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 15 Jun, 2007 5:47 pm

I wouldn't use masking tape - for anything in or outside any frame package. It doesn't last - etc!

Not sure about cutting the glass slightly smaller either, it will be touching the frame on the bottom and possibly on one other side too, that's the sides of the frame, it will, of course, be touching it all around at the front anyway.

Post by **prospero** » Fri 15 Jun, 2007 7:38 pm

The masking tape in this case is not meant to last. It's purpose is to hold the sandwich together until the frame is assembled. If you use good masking tape it will stay sticky for years, so when the little flies try to infiltrate they have two choices: Go over and carry on out the back, or go under and get stuck.
OK, the tape will eventually fail and maybe the flies will be able to get in, but it's not a serious job to replace the tape every ten years or so if need be. I have de-flied many a glazed picture for customers, but never once has a customer brought one of my frames back to have flies removed.

Not your average framer · Fri 15 Jun, 2007 7:47 pm

osgood wrote: A recognised expert in this industry Vivian Kistler uses a great line: "We are framers, not magicians!"
There are no "tricks"!

I never done this myself, but Vivian Kistler also recommends not using spring clips with aluminium frames, but instead filling the gap where the clips should be with layers of mountboard.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 15 Jun, 2007 8:14 pm

prospero wrote:The masking tape in this case is not meant to last. It's purpose is to hold the sandwich together until the frame is assembled. .....

Sorry but I don't see the point of knowingly adding something that is not meant to last. If part of the function of this tape is to keep things out then I'd use the same as I'd use for sealing any frame package and that is lineco frame sealing tape which is METAL and is a REAL barrier - OK it's far more expensive than MT but then ....

OK, the tape will eventually fail and maybe the flies will be able to get in, but it's not a serious job to replace the tape every ten years or so if need be.

....... a fitting charge will cost more, and if it is a 60 x 40 ali frame, then yes, it IS quite a serious job.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Fri 15 Jun, 2007 8:32 pm

Cricket bats are for playing cricket, golf clubs are for playing golf, paint brushes are for applying paint, electrical tape is for electrical wiring, clear sticky or Scotch tape is for sticking paper, and funnily enough MASKING TAPE IS FOR MASKING!

As John said, it has no place inside a frame package!

I'm afraid I have no understanding why an aluminium frame would be considered for a 60 x 40 job. It makes no sense to me, even if acrylic glazing is used! It seems a bit like making London Bridge out of matchsticks!

All this talk of little flies and masking tape and using a fillet with an aluminium frame is making my head hurt!

Post by **prospero** » Fri 15 Jun, 2007 11:37 pm

Sure masking tape is nasty stuff, but why use a more expensive tape for the same purpose? In fact using a more 'permanent' tape in this application make things harder should you ever want to dismantle the frame for any reason.

I'm not talking about using it to finish the backs of frames, I use nice sturdy 4" wide gumstrip for that. It's purely to aid assembly and form a barrier against the flies. It does not come into contact with the artwork.

If anyone knows a better way of keeping the little critters out, I would love to know.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 15 Jun, 2007 11:49 pm

OK prospero - you've sold it.

Masking tape it is then.

As for a better way of keeping the critters out, it's easy really, on the back of the frame you put a large white circular sticker, edged with a red line, in the centre is a sillhouette of a critter, with a diagonal red line through it.

Masking tape.... FFS!

NEXT!!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sat 16 Jun, 2007 12:25 am

prospero wrote: Sure masking tape is nasty stuff, but why use a more expensive tape for the same purpose? In fact using a more 'permanent' tape in this application make things harder should you ever want to dismantle the frame for any reason.

OK - on a serious note, what are we, as framers more concerned with - a job well done, or a job more easy to repair? Should I stop using 'V' nails and just depend on glue - incase I need to replace a damaged leg, or maybe just the 'V' nails and no glue - after all, it dries harder than the wood and all that.

What are you saying here, use crap that you know will fail so as to make life easier for basic frame disassembly and screw what its failure may do to the prime concern - the artwork?

Look - when I get stuff in that is full of thunder flies, water seepage, etc etc etc 9/10 times the customer will see the sense in a total reframe, not least of all because of changes in fashion.

Tape - be it backing or glass sealing, not that I see much of that - is cut through, the artwork removed quickly and easily, the whole frame, glass and all - trashed.

You use a more expensive tape for the same purpose because it is designed for the job and continues to do that job long after the shite you use has given up the ghost.

I'm intrigued now prospero - let's reduce the size of this thing - say to 12 x 16" (image) it's a watercolour - valued at - oh, I don't know ..... £12,000 -

How do you mount it, (secure it) and what to/with, how wide a mat (mount) would you recommend, what quality is that mat (mount) - would you seal this glass/backing package? How and what with? What sort of glass? What about backing board?

How would you hang the thing?

Post by **prospero** » Sat 16 Jun, 2007 1:59 am

You really don't like masking tape do you?

(btw. osgood. What would you use Duck Tape for?)

OK we all have our own methods. As for the £12000 watercolour, well the term 'watercolour' covers a wide area. Is it on paper or paper mounted on board? What quality and weight of paper. Is it nice and flat or cockly? What sort of condition is it in? Does the image area fill the paper? Is it square? Technically speaking, an acryllic painting is a watercolour, in which case I might not use a mount or glass. Whatever way I would approach the job the main objective would be to be able to take the painting out of the frame at any time in the same condition it went in.

Oh, and the little flies would not see the warning sign on the back of the frame. They always enter though the front. (Not a lot of people know that.)

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Sat 16 Jun, 2007 3:16 am

Prospero,

I think you mean "duct" tape! "Duck" is a brand of "duct" tape and I'm sure you know what it is used for. I'm also sure that some people use it in framing too!

OK we all have our own methods.

Yes we certainly do, but some of us strive to learn how do things correctly and we can learn from others how to improve what we do. This forum is a great place to learn!

Having your own method doesn't make that method right!

Anyone has the choice to either accept or reject good advice! There is a wealth of good knowledge here on this forum and it is always my view that I want to improve what I do, by learning from others.

If a majority of framers, including recognised "experts" from around the world were to give advice that masking tape or even duct tape was OK to use in a frame, then I would be rushing off to the hardware store to get some!
It will not happen!

In answer to your question- "You really don't like masking tape do you?".
I really do like masking tape. It's the best thing to use for masking!

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Sat 16 Jun, 2007 6:58 am

Everyone standing well back with all the scrapnel and fireworks flying around on this gentle discourse.

Robo and Prospero enacting their own Shakespearian melodrama.

Great fun watching from the side-lines on this one.

Post by **prospero** » Sat 16 Jun, 2007 9:35 am

OK folks. Don't think I don't appreciate the advice.

But can anyone say that masking tape used in this way has ever adversely affected the artwork in any way?
I can only speak from my own experience. And just because it's my own method doesn't necessarily make it wrong. I have on occaision had cause to check frames I did 20+years ago and the tape was still sound and usually has more than a few black flies under the edge that would otherwise have found their way to the artwork.

Maybe I'll use P-90 in future.