which cassese??

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 10:35 am

I'm going off lion's blurb on that, they say 5 litres per cycle, which I guess is one corner? I guess my trouble is I'm only looking at silent compressors, as it will have to live in the shop. A small jun-air only produces about 44 litres per minute, and a medium 88 - they might struggle with batches of frames.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 3:21 pm

Mark Thornton wrote: Scoop mouldings are easier to join if you make a small "jig" from the same scoop moulding you are wanting to join.

Thanks, Mark - I get the idea. Will give it a go!

BTW, I'm finding this thread very helpful. This type of information will be invaluable in making the best decisions on future equipment purchases. IMO, satsified users make the best sales reps!

markw · Post by **markw** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 3:37 pm

It seems to me that one of the advantages of having a good underpinner is that you dont have to muck around making reverse fitting jigs

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 3:51 pm

Daddy, buy me one!!!!! (Scoops wreck my head....

)

palitana · Post by **palitana** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 5:13 pm

Moglet, what i usually do with my small selection ( you could say exclusive!) of scoop mouldings is to glue and put in corner vice til set before underpinning. Then if really impossible to get get a pin in inner edge without squshing mould, use repair plate or similar at back. or for smaller frames just pin at outside edge.

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 7:23 pm

Thanks for suggestions, Palitana!

It's only the modified head gizmo that damages the moulding. With the standard Cassese bungs, I don't get dents, but I find it difficult to get a really tight join at the top of the moulding.

Bit concerned about only pinning the outer edge of the moulding: my understanding (from FATG recommendations?) is that the greatest joint strength comes from the inner pins. I use a fair proportion of scoops, so adding repair plates to job assembly would be time-costly, and I prefer to avoid plates unless absolutely necessary as I prefer the look of the back of the frame without them. (Also, being truthful, I don't think I have your patience, Palitana!

).

I've got a couple of jobs with scoops to do tonight. I'll see how the jigs go...

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 7:47 pm

I've only ever had euro underpinners - never even seen another make demo'd so I can't say I'd swear by them.

But my 9000 has a clamp - foot operated, and once the corner is clamped, what you see at that point is what you get when you fire the wedges.

A useful optional extra is a head with a hard rubber end that takes the shape of the moulding it hits - this head can also be moved back and fore independently of the hammer below it, so that it hits where you want it to regardless of where the wedge is fired, which could be up to 2 inches in front or behind. So, with a scoop it can hit the flattest/lowest point whilst stacking a couple of wedges up the back.

Maybe most pinners have this feature??

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 8:16 pm

markw wrote:It seems to me that one of the advantages of having a good underpinner is that you dont have to muck around making reverse fitting jigs

Mark,
A parallel would be having a chopper that would perfectly cut every moulding shape, even scooped ones with a deeply undercut back, without chipping. Or undercut back with that new, brittle "compo"!

Perfection is not something that will ever happen with vee nailers or mouldings and we have to work around that the best we can!

It would be nice to live in that fantasy world where everything works perfectly!

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 8:22 pm

Roboframer wrote:Maybe most pinners have this feature??

John,
I don't think there are many vee nailers that have that feature. The best vee nailers have the pressure directly above where the vee nail is fired to provide the best environment for the vee nail to enter the moulding without pushing up some other part of the joint and opening it up slightly.

I had a Euro once. Sold it after a few months. Very basic model and it was a pig of thing. People who designed it should have been shot or tortured to death or undergone some other horrendous punishment for inflicting such a device on the framing world. I hope they make them better than that now!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 12 Jul, 2007 8:38 pm

Well if you leave the head in the default position - fully back - it hits directly above the hammer. But the (pneumatic) clamp will hold a very heavy moulding absolutely rigid - and on the odd occasion where I have to use this feature it works fine.

Were it not for this feature the head would be just too close to some high-backed mouldings and it's handy to be able to move it.

Then again there are problem mouldings and I avoid mouldings which my underpinner does not like. Ditto for the morso - I haven't time for saws, nails and filler.

I know one day I'll see one of these programmable robots that fire 10 wedges of assorted sizes in one hit and fall in love - but I do get good results with my Euro - not least of all because I know it very well.

Not your average framer · Thu 12 Jul, 2007 9:52 pm

Where I was trained they had a 486 installed while I was working there. It was driven hard from day one. Besides having one guy who did nothing else but chopping and a joining all day long, there were 5 other members of staff using it too! Twice a year, they had a heavily advertised framing sale and in the run up to each sale the machine would be in use non-stop. It was just amazing, I think during the 6 months I was there, it blew a couple of internal fuses, but that was all the ever went wrong.

They sold a lot of large Enrique Lopez mouldings and it would blast in a pattern of about 16 wedges in one corner so fast you could hardly believe it. Unfortunately if you drive it that hard, you really do need a serious compressor, or you will out pace the compressor. They had a very large compressor and and it was kicking in all the time. If I had the money, I would have one too!

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 8:54 am

A parallel would be having a chopper that would perfectly cut every moulding shape, even scooped ones with a deeply undercut back, without chipping. Or undercut back with that new, brittle "compo"!

Its not a good parallel - underpinners come with a variety of heads and fence adjustments for the very reason that profiles can be difficult. You will obviously get extreme shapes that may cause problems - but a good underpinner should cope with the majority of mouldings without resorting to packing out the shape. My Casesse has six head choices and a fence that can be adjusted to fit an angled back. The head can be adjusted up and down. - A chopper has a fence, rebate support and a blade - the obvious parallel being that a underpinner has the ability to adapt to the moulding shape - a chopper doesn't.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:11 am

Mark,
I perhaps didn't explain properly what I meant. Not the machines being parallel, but the difficulty of the machine dealing with the product!

What I meant was that there are always some mouldings that are more difficult to join because of their shape and some do not clamp adequately with any of the supplied hardware. Likewise there are mouldings that do not chop well due to their shape and other factors.

If you have never come across a moulding that does not require a special adapter, then that's great. Different range of styles, different countries, different customers etc could account for that. I could send you at least half a dozen that you will not join properly with the adapters supplied with your Cassese! These are obviously a minority, thankfully!

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:26 am

Ormond - your right - and in my perfect world I try and avoid them. I was offered some really severe swept format mouldings the other day with an overhang at the back of about 20mm. Significantly the samples weren't joined and I commented to the rep that joining would be a nightmare - as would cutting.

I believe that mouldings should be designed with some practical consideration given for the fact that it has to be joined on a machine. (and cut). We too often only see consideration given to the problems of manufacturing the moulding.

kaptain.kopter · Post by **kaptain.kopter** » Fri 13 Jul, 2007 9:00 pm

I managed to pick up an cassesse 486 on ebay last year when I was starting the framing side of the business. It's got to be the best £400 I've spent as it's worked perfectly from day one.

.

(Quick pause for people to assimilate that I only paid £400 for it.)

Okay, it's been well used and is cosmetically battered but still works great.

It also sat in my dining room for six months while my workshop was being reconditioned. My wife thought it an expensive conversation piece and not the excellent investment that I maintained.

To support it I bought a new Bambi silent compressor which is a little overkill, approx. 25 litres, but I was planning on extra toys, sorry, other vital air tools.

I've used other underpinners on various courses but would have to say that I would only buy a Cassesse for my own business.

Couldn't have listed the positive points better than Ormond.

So Palitana, it's a lot of money for a new one but should give you years of good service if serviced regularily. Let us know what you finally decide and how you get on.

Not your average framer · Sat 14 Jul, 2007 9:01 pm

Hi Palitana,

Having used or tried the CS-79, CS-88, CS-299 ULTRA and CS-486 ULTRA, I don't think any of their models are in any way suspect. They all are the business. In my business, I have a CS-79 which I was told was only suitable for light use! Well it gets hammered, it stacks wedges upto four deep quite regularly, works well with all wood types (including ash & oak).

In about four years of use, I've only had couple of times when it jammed and every now and then I have to oil the odd squeak on the foot pedal or the pulleys.

So that's the bottom of their range and it's good. As you go up the range you get more performance and facilities. Take your pick! They all are good and are easily the most popular make of underpinner around my area.

I was trained in the workshop of just about the biggest framing outfit in the whole of the west country. Quite a few people who worked there have started their own businesses, we all stay in touch and we all use Cassesse underpinners. I've never heard of any of us having any problems!

Moglet · Post by **Moglet** » Sat 14 Jul, 2007 9:10 pm

Mark Thornton wrote: Scoop mouldings are easier to join if you make a small "jig"...

Thanks again for tip, Mark. A bit "fecky" (please excuse the 'Gaeilge'!), but definitely helps!

palitana · Post by **palitana** » Tue 17 Jul, 2007 6:39 pm

Hey guys,

Thanks again for all the top tips.
Kaptain Kopter i am insanely jealous of your deal. Unbelievable!

By the way, if anyone is reading this thread and wants to why the 486 is sooo hot to trot...look here http://www.activesalesco.com/ca486.htm and click on the demo...600 frames a minute and a jazzy big band vibe...groovy eh?

Still not managed to get to simons for a sesh...will be a couple of weeks, but itching to get sorted .

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Tue 17 Jul, 2007 7:58 pm

palitana wrote:600 frames a minute

I think someone is delving into the realms of fantasy, somewhat!

Mark Thornton · Post by **Mark Thornton** » Tue 17 Jul, 2007 9:50 pm

The 486 in the video clip is old as the new machines now have a height adjustable top bung and horizontal jaws
that go below the bed of the table when they retract.
Anybody thinking of buying one should look for those features or you will end up with the old version.