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markw
Osgood is correct in saying that you should put in the effort - I have - I came to the conclusion that I was wasting my time with a short sighted and autocratic management of a business that had little reference to the likes of me as a high street picture framer. I doubt I am alone in thinking this about the FATG - I have known a few now who have held office within the guild who were deeply dissatisfied.
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Grahame Case
i'll just say one thing.... "Ivory Towers"
Ivory Tower
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The term Ivory Tower designates a world or atmosphere where intellectuals engage in pursuits that are disconnected from the practical concerns of everyday life. As such, it has a pejorative connotation, denoting a willful disconnect from the everyday world; esoteric, over-specialized, or even useless research; and academic elitism, if not outright condescension by those inhabiting the proverbial ivory tower. In American English usage it ordinarily denotes the academic world of colleges and universities, particularly scholars of the humanities.
Sound Familiar to those of us in the framing profession - especially those up in the north half of the country above the watford gap?
Ivory Tower
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The term Ivory Tower designates a world or atmosphere where intellectuals engage in pursuits that are disconnected from the practical concerns of everyday life. As such, it has a pejorative connotation, denoting a willful disconnect from the everyday world; esoteric, over-specialized, or even useless research; and academic elitism, if not outright condescension by those inhabiting the proverbial ivory tower. In American English usage it ordinarily denotes the academic world of colleges and universities, particularly scholars of the humanities.
Sound Familiar to those of us in the framing profession - especially those up in the north half of the country above the watford gap?
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osgood
The tests are run when and where it is practical and when there are people who want to sit the test. There are other requirements for the test including that a CPF needs to be in attendance at the test to oversee it so the tests can't be run at a moments notice. There is a requirement that PPFA headquarters is notified four months in advance of the test date so that the test can be advertised and all the other procedures can be implemented.Moglet wrote: Regarding tests in the UK, Ormond, what timescale was there between the Australian PPFA members requesting tests, and the PPFA actually running them "down under"? I ask because I am seriously considering applying to take the test in the States.
The test also requires quite an amount of study and any framer who thinks he already knows enough to pass the test without studying the material suggested, will be in for a surprise. You will need to obtain the books recommended if you don't already have them and study the chapters suggested.
Another great benefit of sitting the test is that you will gain a lot of knowledge and by buying the recommended books you will gain a great resource for reference purposes.
Our trade show just finished in Sydney today and I spent a few hours participating on the PPFA booth, answering questions and talking to people about becoming a member and discussing the benefits of membership. during the show there have been many membership forms submitted and many more taken away to be submitted. The results were very pleasing indeed.
Perhaps the PPFA might be an answer for UK framers! It is under the umbrella of PMA and PPFA members automatically become members of PMA.
There is info on the PPFA website at www.ppfa.com
We also have an Aussie site at www.ppfaaustralia.org
OK, credentials first: I am a GCF of many year's standing (one of the first 100 in fact) and a current member of the FATG. I have also served on a Guild committee.
I must say I have to agree with much of what has been said above regarding the Guild, and I have become increasingly disillusioned over recent years, in part because of its apparent bias towards Supplier members - MarkW is right to say that the Guild has little relevance to small framers, it seems to have lost its way in recent times.
That said, the GCF test remains a very good benchmark by which to evaluate framing skills. The basic course book (and no doubt the advanced modules) provide an excellent introduction to quality framing and certainly set me and many others on successful careers.
I understand that the CPF exam does not include any practical tests and have always wondered how relevant it can be to the essentially practical craft of framing. Such PPFA luminaries as John Ranes and Viv Kistler obviously feel that there is a benefit in holding the GCF qualification.
As for not allowing non-members to display the logo, on the face of it (I have not received an email), this is ludicrous. The GCF logo and window sticker contain the Guild logo. The Guild awards the GCF. Displaying the GCF logo is not the same thing as claiming Guild membership. Simple as that.
I must say I have to agree with much of what has been said above regarding the Guild, and I have become increasingly disillusioned over recent years, in part because of its apparent bias towards Supplier members - MarkW is right to say that the Guild has little relevance to small framers, it seems to have lost its way in recent times.
That said, the GCF test remains a very good benchmark by which to evaluate framing skills. The basic course book (and no doubt the advanced modules) provide an excellent introduction to quality framing and certainly set me and many others on successful careers.
I understand that the CPF exam does not include any practical tests and have always wondered how relevant it can be to the essentially practical craft of framing. Such PPFA luminaries as John Ranes and Viv Kistler obviously feel that there is a benefit in holding the GCF qualification.
As for not allowing non-members to display the logo, on the face of it (I have not received an email), this is ludicrous. The GCF logo and window sticker contain the Guild logo. The Guild awards the GCF. Displaying the GCF logo is not the same thing as claiming Guild membership. Simple as that.
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Moglet
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Ormond speaks the truth!osgood wrote:The test also requires quite an amount of study and any framer who thinks he already knows enough to pass the test without studying the material suggested, will be in for a surprise..... Another great benefit of sitting the test is that you will gain a lot of knowledge and by buying the recommended books you will gain a great resource for reference purposes.
Details of the PPFA Certification programme can be found here.
I found the CPF study guide very useful. It is particularly helpful as a study guide because it directs you to the appropriate sections of the recommended study material. It also contains some sample test questions.
With regard to Tammy's comment on the absence of a 'practical' in the CPF exam, I thought that many of the test questions were couched in such a way that sound practical experience would be required in order to answer them correctly. After reading the guide and test, my impression of what the certification represents is that you really need to know your onions to pass!
The PPFA Master CPF test seems to be closer to the GCF test. In view of this, I wonder why John Ranes and Vivien Kistler went for GCF (just out of curiosity - maybe it's a relatively new programme
).I also noticed today that PPFA are now offering an "Online Certification" programme. Haven't read the details yet, but maybe this could be a way forward for interested UK framers?
........Áine JGF SGF FTB
.Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
.Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.-
Steve N
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- Location: Now in Bristol
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GCF Logo
Hi All,
Thanks for the welcome Moglet, I'm not sprog to framing, just been doing it for about the last 18 years, my GCF number is 020 so you can see I was one of the first to pass the test.
You could say that I had a hand in starting the GCF test, as I had won one of the Guilds Framing Awards they asked me if they was anything wrong with the industry, well I said there was no qualifications and I was looking into going on holiday to the States to take the test there as I was a member of the PPFA. For the next 12 months or so I was asked about different schemes and ways of staging the GCF ( as it was to come to be named) . I really think it is the best there is, you do need to do a practical test, as they say “Those that can -- do, those that can’t-- teach” (who are “They” by the way ? ) I could read up on how to do a Heart Bypass operation , but I do not think you would let me operate on you. Unfortunately it is just the organization ( FATG) that lets it down. Since it has turn into a business with an MD it has gone down hill.
I have been disillusioned with the guild for a long time , in fact writing this is getting me down, so I might have to sign off now.
Thanks for the welcome Moglet, I'm not sprog to framing, just been doing it for about the last 18 years, my GCF number is 020 so you can see I was one of the first to pass the test.
You could say that I had a hand in starting the GCF test, as I had won one of the Guilds Framing Awards they asked me if they was anything wrong with the industry, well I said there was no qualifications and I was looking into going on holiday to the States to take the test there as I was a member of the PPFA. For the next 12 months or so I was asked about different schemes and ways of staging the GCF ( as it was to come to be named) . I really think it is the best there is, you do need to do a practical test, as they say “Those that can -- do, those that can’t-- teach” (who are “They” by the way ? ) I could read up on how to do a Heart Bypass operation , but I do not think you would let me operate on you. Unfortunately it is just the organization ( FATG) that lets it down. Since it has turn into a business with an MD it has gone down hill.
I have been disillusioned with the guild for a long time , in fact writing this is getting me down, so I might have to sign off now.
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markw
Re: GCF Logo
I think you hit it on the nail here - seems to me that the managment run it now - committees just do as they are told.Steve N wrote: Unfortunately it is just the organization ( FATG) that lets it down. Since it has turn into a business with an MD it has gone down hill.
I also think the GCF is a very worthwhile test - but it has to be backed up by a public profile - as well as a industry profile - they have failed badly on both counts - taking the logo away just doesn't help. How many members were consulted - I suspect none - management decision..
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Moglet
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Re: GCF Logo
Mea culpa, mea culpa.Steve N wrote:I'm not sprog to framing...
Please accept my apologies, Steve. With regard to the different approaches of CPF and GCF, I think there are merits to both written and practical framing tests (ref: my comments in the FATG thread). The written exam can test for breadth of knowledge, and the practical provides demonstrable proof of the application of that knowledge. There's a case for both approaches, IMO, and perhaps the very best certification might be a combination of the two? GCF members, is there an oral part to the test as well as the practical?
It is undeniable that the standard of work produced by different framers can vary substantially. Therefore, I think it's of great importance to have recognised standards and professional certification schemes so that customers can distinguish between framers and purchase with confidence, and also to improve public perception of framing as the highly-skilled craft it is. On the FATG website, it lists a number of benefits of GCF certification. IMO the marketing benefits listed hold water if, and only if, customers know what being a GCF means. The website is correct to say that GCF "is recognised worldwide," but it seems to me that the people doing the recognising are not the majority of the buying public. I think it's ironic that the Guild does not put effort into educating the public, since a well-informed customer base would be the greatest force for promoting higher standards within the trade, because they tend to vote with their wallets.
I know that I'm a trade newbie, so please forgive me if this is an extremely naïve question, but why do the Guild appear to be so reticent to listen to and support the interests of framers? If you'll pardon the pun, surely the work done by framers underpins the entire art business?
........Áine JGF SGF FTB
.Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
.Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.Re: GCF Logo
There is indeed Moglet, the GCF test consists of a written paper, a practical test (not specified in advance) and the examination of work previously completed and brought in by the candidate. The GCF tester may also ask relevant questions. A comprehensive exam, in my view.Moglet wrote: GCF members, is there an oral part to the test as well as the practical?
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Roboframer
Regards the public being made aware - I don't think they would give one anyway in all honesty.
We have all heard of CORGI - then there is ABTA - struggling now; there's a builders one - God knows what it is.
Just asked my wife and son what trade organisations/ qualifications spring to mind if looking for services.
Both said CORGI straightaway - neither said ABTA - son added Guild of master craftsmen - which he knew nothing about but 'sounded good'
CORGI is so well known due to deaths and near deaths due to carbon monoxide poisoning - and a new boiler/heating system is something that costs a packet and you want to get right - also a big selling point in the most expensive purchase we make - our home.
But think of that purchase - what trade bodies and qualifications did all envolved in that purchase have?
Surveyor - ah there's another - Institute of chartered surveyors.
Solicitor? - well s/he was a qualified solicitor - otherwise ....?
Estate agent?
Bank?
So - on to the next biggest purchase we make - our cars - what trade bodies and qualifications do we see there? No doubt they exist - mechanics have to have city and guilds stuff etc etc - we assume the dealerships employ qualified personnel. But we don't give a stuff what those qualifications are or where they got them - long as our cars are good and reliable and when they break, get fixed.
So why should the average framing customer, with the average job, worry about our qualifications? Compared to the costs of the above two purchases - where qualifications are hardly an issue - a graduation photo or a football shirt pale into insignificance.
Even those that have highly valuable works of art will give them to a restorer or conservator - what qualifications are there in those trades? I dunno and I'm a framer - but no doubt they'll find someone who inspires confidence - and that is what we framers have to do. Make customers' choices informed ones - go further than just presentation, which is all most customers are concerned with - open their eyes to the dangers of bad framing and the benefits of good - without boring them ****less with science.
Use the FATG - all the info is there and I agree the GCF test is worth taking - just don't expect your customers to recommend you on the strength of those letters - they won't mean a thing to them, and if they do then it won't be for long.
I'm a calligrapher - when I was doing a lot of it I thought about becoming a FSSI - Fellow of the Society of Scribes & Illuminators - anyone heard of that one?
It would have taken about 5 years and cost about £25,000 - pass or not!
My sister is MRPS - Member of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society - so is the guy that runs the chemist down the road. But he is not responsible for the drugs in 6 hospitals, he doesn't go around getting doctors struck off for under/over dosing or just prescribing the wrong drugs in the first place - in fact there have been complaints about him even ISSUING the wrong stuff - my sis would have his head on a plate!
There are MRPS's and MRPS's just as there are GCFs and GCFs - etc etc.
We have all heard of CORGI - then there is ABTA - struggling now; there's a builders one - God knows what it is.
Just asked my wife and son what trade organisations/ qualifications spring to mind if looking for services.
Both said CORGI straightaway - neither said ABTA - son added Guild of master craftsmen - which he knew nothing about but 'sounded good'
CORGI is so well known due to deaths and near deaths due to carbon monoxide poisoning - and a new boiler/heating system is something that costs a packet and you want to get right - also a big selling point in the most expensive purchase we make - our home.
But think of that purchase - what trade bodies and qualifications did all envolved in that purchase have?
Surveyor - ah there's another - Institute of chartered surveyors.
Solicitor? - well s/he was a qualified solicitor - otherwise ....?
Estate agent?
Bank?
So - on to the next biggest purchase we make - our cars - what trade bodies and qualifications do we see there? No doubt they exist - mechanics have to have city and guilds stuff etc etc - we assume the dealerships employ qualified personnel. But we don't give a stuff what those qualifications are or where they got them - long as our cars are good and reliable and when they break, get fixed.
So why should the average framing customer, with the average job, worry about our qualifications? Compared to the costs of the above two purchases - where qualifications are hardly an issue - a graduation photo or a football shirt pale into insignificance.
Even those that have highly valuable works of art will give them to a restorer or conservator - what qualifications are there in those trades? I dunno and I'm a framer - but no doubt they'll find someone who inspires confidence - and that is what we framers have to do. Make customers' choices informed ones - go further than just presentation, which is all most customers are concerned with - open their eyes to the dangers of bad framing and the benefits of good - without boring them ****less with science.
Use the FATG - all the info is there and I agree the GCF test is worth taking - just don't expect your customers to recommend you on the strength of those letters - they won't mean a thing to them, and if they do then it won't be for long.
I'm a calligrapher - when I was doing a lot of it I thought about becoming a FSSI - Fellow of the Society of Scribes & Illuminators - anyone heard of that one?
It would have taken about 5 years and cost about £25,000 - pass or not!
My sister is MRPS - Member of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society - so is the guy that runs the chemist down the road. But he is not responsible for the drugs in 6 hospitals, he doesn't go around getting doctors struck off for under/over dosing or just prescribing the wrong drugs in the first place - in fact there have been complaints about him even ISSUING the wrong stuff - my sis would have his head on a plate!
There are MRPS's and MRPS's just as there are GCFs and GCFs - etc etc.
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kaptain.kopter
- Posts: 101
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When starting to frame, only a year ago, I looked around for good training courses and membership of a professional body.
I felt that joining the FATG would be a desirous thing to do as well as sit the GCF exam after relevant study and experience.
As a professional photographer, many of my clients have used me because I'm an Associate of the British Institute of Professional Photography. This means my work has been scrutinised by other leading photographers and deemed to be of a high standard.
Pause to take in applause from all (except Ormond who would like to eat all photographers livers with fava beans and a nice Chianti).
However, when looking into the FATG, I honestly couldn't see any incentive to actually join, nevermind take the exam. The BIPP costs me £100 per annum which entitles me to use their crest, link my website to theirs, have a gallery of my images on their website (haven't yet, sore subject) and attend various workshops and seminars. What would the Guild do for me? Never mind at what financial cost!!
I'm lucky to have found this forum early on and have gained a lot of knowledge and received advice from highly experienced people in the industry. When the majority of these also cannot see any point in joining the Guild then its days must be numbered unless they have a radical rethink about their support of the framing community. On the other hand and probably more realistically, they just don't care and we're just too small a voice.
I felt that joining the FATG would be a desirous thing to do as well as sit the GCF exam after relevant study and experience.
As a professional photographer, many of my clients have used me because I'm an Associate of the British Institute of Professional Photography. This means my work has been scrutinised by other leading photographers and deemed to be of a high standard.
Pause to take in applause from all (except Ormond who would like to eat all photographers livers with fava beans and a nice Chianti).
However, when looking into the FATG, I honestly couldn't see any incentive to actually join, nevermind take the exam. The BIPP costs me £100 per annum which entitles me to use their crest, link my website to theirs, have a gallery of my images on their website (haven't yet, sore subject) and attend various workshops and seminars. What would the Guild do for me? Never mind at what financial cost!!
I'm lucky to have found this forum early on and have gained a lot of knowledge and received advice from highly experienced people in the industry. When the majority of these also cannot see any point in joining the Guild then its days must be numbered unless they have a radical rethink about their support of the framing community. On the other hand and probably more realistically, they just don't care and we're just too small a voice.
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Dermot
[quote="Moglet
In view of this, I wonder why John Ranes and Vivien Kistler went for GCF (just out of curiosity - maybe it's a relatively new programme ).
[/quote]
I have meet John quite a few times he is a great person ........in fact a few years ago I spent the night in Birmingham UK watching the Super Bowl with him
John does up to 100 days consultancy a year for the Fletcher Terry company both in the US and other areas of the world.............I would consider that his GCF is respect for the framing business in the UK and other areas of the world like New Zealand where the Guild have a reasonable presence....John also loves a challenge and I think he would have seen the GCF in that light also...........
Vivien Kistler’s company sell their books and other publications all over the world and I would suspect the GCF is the same as Johns out of respect and for commercial reasons.
In view of this, I wonder why John Ranes and Vivien Kistler went for GCF (just out of curiosity - maybe it's a relatively new programme
).[/quote]
I have meet John quite a few times he is a great person ........in fact a few years ago I spent the night in Birmingham UK watching the Super Bowl with him
John does up to 100 days consultancy a year for the Fletcher Terry company both in the US and other areas of the world.............I would consider that his GCF is respect for the framing business in the UK and other areas of the world like New Zealand where the Guild have a reasonable presence....John also loves a challenge and I think he would have seen the GCF in that light also...........
Vivien Kistler’s company sell their books and other publications all over the world and I would suspect the GCF is the same as Johns out of respect and for commercial reasons.
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Roboframer
I've met John Ranes too and I agree with his views on the FATG/PPFA - he is all for 'association' - being part of a body of like minded people - so am I - that's why I'm here.
I really would be part of the FATG if I could more easily be associated - if I were based in Birmingham or somewhere, I could more easily attend local branch meetings and meet these other like minded people in the flesh. But in my part of the world no-one is interested and I'm just too busy to go trekking around the country, let alone the world as JR does.
Being part of them does not mean I'd have to think more highly of them - I pay taxes and I don't agree with everything that my government does with the money.
I really would be part of the FATG if I could more easily be associated - if I were based in Birmingham or somewhere, I could more easily attend local branch meetings and meet these other like minded people in the flesh. But in my part of the world no-one is interested and I'm just too busy to go trekking around the country, let alone the world as JR does.
Being part of them does not mean I'd have to think more highly of them - I pay taxes and I don't agree with everything that my government does with the money.
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kev@frames
- Posts: 1951
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FATG
I Have had the magazine for many years and find it to be mainly a great advert for the likes of DeMontford fine art, Washington Green, Arqadia Castle Galleries, Jodi Phillips etc. I remember reading an interveiw with the lady who owns DeMontford and she was saying how they were trying to take the snobbery out of the art industry, well she must live on a different planet because companys like hers are pushing the smaller galleries out because they only want to deal with the big boys! You only have to look at the awards every year SAME OLD FACES. I keep having the mag because 1 or 2 bits are good.
I had been thinking about taking the GCF course but then woundered if my Customers would know what it was anyway, and the answer to that would be NO
I had been thinking about taking the GCF course but then woundered if my Customers would know what it was anyway, and the answer to that would be NO
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Grahame Case