Spatial framing or display cases.

[realhotglass]

Thanks for your kind words Áine.

Of course most framers I know want to avoid acrylic like the plague, due to scratching / dulling reasons. (For some strange reason, US framers don't see this as an issue.)

The all glass units are quite unique, and very suitable for modern settings etc.

OK Robo, you go and buy up all the old fish tanks you can, clean 'em up, and make frame plinths for bases.
That's what you think of display cases in general, and certainly you are entitled to your view.
But believe me, a good design and workmanship will leave what you describe for dead.

NYAF, with UV glue you need the strength for the edge thickness more than anything else.
Yes, quite a few glass companies use UV glue for display cabinets (shop fitting, counters, etc).

Sure, I can see that if a framer does have time to put labour into making timber frame cases him / her self, then great.
Framers would generally have the hand skills to do this after some initial practice.

But most shops I see / hear from are flat out framing 'pitchers'
Besides this, there is the space issue for setting up pretty much a whole other business, and more importantly in confined spaces more DUST that would be produced.

Maybe a picture framer is better to have a good reliable source for display cases, whack on a good price to their cost to cover : a client consult, phone call / order to a supplier, quick unwrapping of goods on delivery and checking, then phoning client for collection, plus a little extra margin to boot.

Leaves valuable time for what framers are great at, actual framing work.
Saves undercharging on your labour too.
If a contractor is set up to do this type of work efficiently, the savings a frame shop might make is negated by not interfering with normal flow of framing work.

Maybe Cubics aim is to be such a niche supplier, maybe the aim is to impart his concepts freely to a willing, visionary, and appreciative audience, or maybe the aim is to sell his system.

I'm always happy to bounce things back and forth, great to expand the mind.
I hope you all don't mind me participating with these topics as I do.

[Moglet]

...most framers I know want to avoid acrylic like the plague, due to scratching / dulling reasons....

I would prefer to have the work I do for my customers to "stand the test of time" so glass would definitely be my preferred option.

I hope you all don't mind me participating with these topics as I do.

I, for one, am delighted to read your contributions, Les: I'm learning so much from you, and I really appreciate that you share your knowledge and experience with us!

[osgood]

You guys should know that the glass cases Les makes are truly superb! The quality of workmanship has to be seen to be believed.

[realhotglass]

I don't do this often, but here goes . . .

[cubic framer]

You guys should know that the glass cases Les makes are truly superb! The quality of workmanship has to be seen to be believed.

I agree,

I have looked at RHG's site (hope you do not mind the abbreviation) it is from your name that I assume that you bend glass. Have you heard of John Bowden and Co, they are in Stratford, East London. I used to get my curved glass for reproduction fish cases from them back in the early eighties.

The firm is still there, just about, they are on the site for the 2012 Olympics and I was down there last summer helping with some of the survey work, the factory is now very much reduced but when I first went down the factory floor was the size of several football pitches and the moulds would have done for the olympic longjump pits both ways.

Heavy cranes ran the whole lenght of the factory, the shear weight of the glass for each pane must have been enormous.

In fact when I started buying glass I did not buy 2mm, 3mm, 4mm or 6mm, I bought 16 oz, 24oz, 32oz and then it plain jumped to 1/4 inch plate or just too heavy to bother about. Those are the weights per square foot.

With cases there is a balance between safety and the thickness of the glass, there is also the consideration of the weight and this might be of pressing concern to the client.

It seems to me that part of the framers 'duty of care' should include a knowledge of this.

I support RHG's views on the value and quality of glass, at the Spring Gift Fair this year on Washington Green's stand there was an intriguing 3D scenario cased in acrylic, the static practically glared at you.

Speaking to one of the main publishing companies, I asked if there was any interest in bringing forwards some smaller 3D works by well known artists. One company framer/buyer said that they would like to do this, they do there own framing 2D, but there was no the knowledge of 3D framing.

The term Spatial framing may be needed to expand the mind into a broader understanding, imagine those victorian shop windows that had glass curved for them in moulds big enough to park two cars in and was'nt Damion Hurst's suspended livestock framed, something had to stop the formaldehyde pouring over the visitors to the Tate.

RHG's display cases are excellent and there is one item that proves he is a three dimensional framer and that is the through case. I will not bore you with some interesting history about the picture frame case at this stage.

He is also correct that many framers should opt to have a display case made, it is probably sound business sense, but is it also common sense to have the knowledge of what the other alternatives are, be aware of what is possible to do 'in house'. The client then, will have had the best advice.

It is my wish to support those framers such as Moglet, who wish to do it themselves, put their own personal stamp on their work and give their clients a range of options.

And perhaps, as they explore the techniques available, experience the range of subjects that they have to work with and expand their customer base they too, may need the term Spatial framing to describe their talents.

[markw]

Cubic Framer - I've never known a subject to be teased out for so long and actually still have gone nowhere. Couldn't care a monkeys what you want to call "it" - cant imagine that I would be able to charge enough to provide it as a service. I think the fact that you specialised rather makes the point - Its a specialised product made by whatever you want to call yourself. Would I call Damien Hirsts shark framed - I wouldn't even call it art. ( I would call his ability to make money extremely artful).

Someone please put Cubic framer out of his misery and ask him how he would frame something really large and complicated - he can then explain in the most minute detail exactly how he would do it. We could then fully understand just why we don't frame large 3d objects but leave them to cabinet makers who have the specialist tools.

[realhotglass]

To follow up on some of those links you posted before Áine.

Here are some links to examples of the above that I've seen on The Grumble:

Shirt with Football in Acrylic "Bubble".

Have seen this before quite a few times, and I think this might be a couple of Aussie fellas that patented this process. They tried it here ins Aus for a couple of years, but due to the market here and the anti-acrylic sentiment, they sort of disappeared.
If they did take it / license it over in the US, then that makes good business sense, because framers there are certainly less worried about acrylic issues.

I had an interesting experience with the 2 blokes that had that here, but that's another (long) story.

Venetian Mask in Acrylic Case.

Now, I really dislike that look, box protrudes too far out for my liking.
Would be far better suited to a free standing table display case, with an angled base insert to present the mask at 45o or so.

And the framer there could have simply made it to lay flat pretty much as he framed it to hang.

I do make shallower ones like this (for vertical framing) in glass, but limit the protrusion to say under 100mm (4") or so on a larger size, otherwise it just look awful IMHO.
We make them with the same the little lip to hold in a frame rebate etc.
Very handy for offset 3D items, in situations where my convex glass (which is deepest at it centre) is not suitable.

On a side note, I usually recommend where something being framed to hang does have a depth that would look a bit ugly, that the framer makes a smaller back box, and the depth is split about 50/50 in the back box and protrusion (convex glass or through frame display case). This works very well, and stops the large box look, or the bulging (pregnant) glass / case protrusion.

And for contrast:

Venetian Mask in Shadow Box..

I don't mind that in the shallower shadow box . . . but I have made many moderate depth convex glasses for exactly such masks, so eliminating the need for boxing etc altogether.

I've also seen a framed school cap in a local pub (1" deep shadowbox with window mount). To me, it looks like a dead thing in the frame, it's so 'saggy'...

Yes, agreed. Sports caps (all sorts of headwear actually) do seem odd when framed to hang in a package, sort of look un-natural in that vertical form.

[realhotglass]

I assume that you bend glass. Have you heard of John Bowden and Co, they are in Stratford, East London. I used to get my curved glass for reproduction fish cases from them

Yep, that's the core business, kiln formed glass.

Hadn't heard of John Bowden & Co.
Shame that co's like that seem to go under as times progress.
Failure to adapt most likely, but also fashion trends.
Curved glass was out for many years, but seems to be making a bit of a comeback in architectural features.

Heard an interesting business adage the other day . . . The only thing that should remain constant is change.

Sure, duty of care is the best way to approach projects, over engineer a bit too.
Common sense approach to whether a job is even feasible / safe or not.
I get architects drawing curved glass water feature walls etc, with all sorts of impossible angles. They figure, if they can draw it, I can make it !
Not always so.

Anyway, if it is your plan to produce these for framers there, then it can work. The main thing is to listen, adapt, and learn to pack really well !!

Oh, the through frame cases I make ? Not for my framing needs. We just problem solve with, and supply our lines to, picture framers.

RHG ? Nah, abbreviate away ! The only thing is when I hear / see RHG, I can't help but think of Roy & HG, a couple of TV comedy presenters here.
You might have even seen them on your tele over there, I think they did an Olympics or Winter Olympics a few years ago ?

[realhotglass]

Cubic Framer - I've never known a subject to be teased out for so long and actually still have gone nowhere.
- cant imagine that I would be able to charge enough to provide it as a service.
ask him how he would frame something really large and complicated - he can then explain in the most minute detail exactly how he would do it. We could then fully understand just why we don't frame large 3d objects but leave them to cabinet makers who have the specialist tools.

Mark, the thread is a bit drawn out perhaps, but surely hasn't 'gone nowhere'.
It has been very interesting and is providing food for thought for many here.

You're guessing it's not affordable for all parties ?
I can say it is in Aus, may not be over there, but this will also depend on how complex something is to make and the skills / time needed.

Usually a properly mounted and framed to hang 3D package isn't going to be (and shouldn't be) cheap, therefore in situations where a display case is more ideal, it should compare within reason to a quality framed to hang construction.

Sure, I understand you guys and girls are in this to make money FRAMING, but display cases are more for items that aren't really going to go well framed to hang.

It's work you probably wouldn't have taken on, would have done badly (design wise), or wouldn't have made money on (possibly even a bottom line loss).

So it comes down to offering your clients more viable and workable solutions, where you can still make some profit and provide clients with a sometimes much better option.

They'll be back with their next framing project, don't worry

If a project is too large for myself or other manufacturer, I'm the first to recommend a larger scale manufacturer such as a cabinet maker.
We're mostly taking smaller to moderate size display cases here.

I do already give all my base making to a timber worker next door to my factory. I know my limits with equipment and skills, and he does a great job at a good rate, because he knows his stuff.

I have made cases 1000mm x 400mm x 800mm (h) for model ships etc, but these are definitely for local delivery only !

[markw]

Realhotglass - If you don't mind me saying so - your a specialist just like cubicframer. You have obviously invested time and effort into developing a niche market. Nothing wrong with niche markets especially for the specialist who can make good money from his unusual talents.

This doesnt, for a second say that I am not keen to gain some useful pointers in the object framing that I presently undertake but cubics postings seem to be challenging our patients more than our minds.

[Steve N]

Hi all,
I have 2 t-shirts with artwork or designs on both sides, my customer wants to see both sides of the t-shirts when framed, any ideas. Would these be suitable for Spatial framing ? what does Cubic framer think? how would you guys and gals, go about it ?
This is a serious request for help and info.

Steve N

[Moglet]

Hi Steve,

Not done one of these yet, so the best I can suggest is that Pete Bingham's book, "Pure Agony" has a step-by-step method for displaying both sides of a shirt. (The book is available from Lion, btw.) Tricky enough to do, by the sound of it.

I'm sure that other forum bods will probably have better suggestions than mine!

[cubic framer]

There are several methods available to the framer for making covers, using silicone, tiffany glass method with copper foil and solder and UV activated iso-cyanate and others.

Several of the silicone methods are low cost, and with the procedure tailored to the small workshop have the potential of high return commisions.

During the period that I made cases for the pub decor market, a number of frame business attempted copies, most seemed to make a butt jointed case and then add an angle trim, our method was to have a setting table, use the angle to hold the glass together and the cutting and adjustment of the triple double mitre of the corner was part of the procedure. We achieved a consistent high standard recognised throughout the trade we supplied.

Another method developed involved a flexible silicone joint, almost allows the glass to be wrapped around the object.

Together with a number of tenderfoot methods, I had considered trying to develope some form of tutorials. It is the procedure as well as the method that is relevant to achieving the standard that has given both these methods a 25 year provenance.

I would not wish to devalue the work we did by letting information go without a proper course of instruction.

Les is correct, the topic has been informative it has told me that I should probably forget the idea and go for a long walk, I probably will make a few cases.(I have downsized from a 5000 sq.ft workshop to something a bit bigger than a garden shed)

My advice to framers is to take this form of framing seriously, in this country it is being done by the glass trade, and I suspect not touching the pockets of framers.

[Grahame Case]

with all due respect, alot of us are so busy with other forms of work that we hardly have time to relax at night6, never mind make display cases..

object framing accounts for a very small percentage of our actual framing requests, and we've managed pretty well up to now without having to get involved in using cases.

we wouldn't be able to self manufacture these either, as it takes too long, and we have very limited workshop space. and i for one don't particularly want to have to work nights again.. its bad enough having to do it at peak times like Christmas but not all year round

Congratulations on what you have achieved but i can't see how it is relevant to an extremely busy modern custom picture framer like ourselves.

[markw]

T
I would not wish to devalue the work we did by letting information go without a proper course of instruction.

Les is correct, the topic has been informative it has told me that I should probably forget the idea and go for a long walk, I probably will make a few cases.(I have downsized from a 5000 sq.ft workshop to something a bit bigger than a garden shed)

My advice to framers is to take this form of framing seriously, in this country it is being done by the glass trade, and I suspect not touching the pockets of framers.

Cubic - its a forum - framers will ask questions - if you can help just contribute - those involved will be very grateful for your knowledge.

[cubic framer]

Willingly, just don't ask me how to make a case, I have neither the stamina to sit at the computer console nor the prepared material yet to deliver, eventually maybe. Many of my questions have been asked to try find out at what stage some of you out there are at or even if you want to be there.

It is because many of you are in cramped working spaces with little time to spare that I am trying to to design a quick method, using readily available materials.

Is there an instant glue that will bond a very small moulding in a frame sufficient handle, if there is the results will be back on this topic

[Roboframer]

Hi all,
I have 2 t-shirts with artwork or designs on both sides, my customer wants to see both sides of the t-shirts when framed, any ideas. Would these be suitable for Spatial framing ? what does Cubic framer think? how would you guys and gals, go about it ?
This is a serious request for help and info.

Steve N

Here is how I did one - no pictures I'm afraid and not a cheap option - there shouldn't be one of those anyway.
8th post down here

[Moglet]

Given that they were visible, what type of hangers did you use on your "floating shirt" design, John?

[Roboframer]

Just double hole 'D' Rings I'm afraid - painted black. I could have disguised them with little footballs or Subbuteo players or something maybe, but by that stage I was pretty spent creatively. But the braid really finished it off well and you didn't really see the hangers.

The whole subframe thing and mounting method was from a very timely article from Pete Bingham's agony column in TPB - maybe it's the same method in his book?

The guy comes out with some corking ideas and I wish he had the time and/or inclination to share more here - he's registered.

It was a Newcastle shirt - Shearer - I lined the inner frame with B&W mountboard.

Didn't want to do it - thought my price would put the customer off but it didn't, turned out not to be enough, next time, if there is one, the same price will be right though as I'll know what to expect and have less to re-do!

[Moglet]

I thought the braid idea was really cool!

I don't know whether the method in the "Pure Agony" article was akin to yours: I just had a quick glance at the book to make sure I hadn't imagined it before making the reference.