Memorial plaque with tricky field commendation

[Roboframer]

So - adhesives, staples and MDF covered with fabric.

That didn't time out - but to save that from happening you can highlight and copy your post every paragraph or so just incase, or preview it now and again, however it can time out mid-preview so I always go for for the highlight and copy option.

I do have to say (and I know I'm a sod for having to say, but still) - that somewhere you said you 'specialised' in medals. Well I'm sorry, but although the end result looks fine and you're a nice guy and all that, there's nothing special about your methods .... or materials, and nor can there be if the same methods are DIY - you're not doing any better than your customers can - how does that work?

[mikeysaling]

well you must remember that the framing is only part of the job - research obtaining medals cap badges trf's etc is also important and part of the job - the final part is the framing.

quite often we start with NOTHING to frame - we have to research it - bid for it or buy it - all the time keeping contact with the customer - who may or may not be 'with it' or have the correct information at hand. some of our frames , or at least the contents cost a lot of money (even replicas and engraving them can be expensive) so quite a long time ago we started offering DIY frames (ready made outer and inner and all bits and bobs to make the frame) - how many framers would do that? Bit like a kit car Caterham 7 maybe!

Frame above was £80 including cleaning and re ribboning - no idea how much anyone else would charge but i know we are competitive.

Robo - do appreciate your critique - wonder what others say? I still like what i do and so do my customers and we love going to the BL and having a couple o pints on a sunday!!

heres an intersting one postcards sent home from pow camp ww1

[mikeysaling]

forgot and cannot edit now -- one thing i learnt in banking - which bankers have now forgotten is the KIS principle Keep It Simple - If you built your caterham 7 you can rebuild sevice ammend change update whatever! What can you do with your BM Merc Ford these days - not a lot my neighbour had to spend £90 on his focus to find out a mouse had chewed his wiring - total bill over £300. - i gave him a mousetrap!

I reckon if you can get into the frame easily you won't have too many probs. Lots of medal frames ive seen are sealed and when the meds start tarnishing you cannot get at em! also even with 'conservation' uv glass the ribbons fade - i really dont know the mean time to failure for uv against normal float but my guess is not a lot of difference - my 20 year old frames here the contents have not shown any sign of failure yet .

mybe another topic but is the special uv/conservation glass thing a con!

have a nice day

[John]

nor can there be if the same methods are DIY - you're not doing any better than your customers can - how does that work?

I know that you are a nice guy and all, and in many respects you seem to be an ok sort of framer, and I hate to be the one to have to say it, but have you considered that to many that will come across a so much arrogant tosh Roboframer?

I really hate it when members use the forum to put others down.

[Roboframer]

I made positive comments on both the design and the person and have answered the question about how would others do it in detail and I wouldn't make negative comments, which are about materials and methods; not people, unless I could offer alternatives, which could be taken or left.

Robo - do appreciate your critique - wonder what others say?

Mikey doesn't seem to feel put down and I sincerely apologise if anyone else thinks that was my intention.

[John]

Roboframer, you have misunderstood. I was speaking on behalf of the forum rather than on behalf of a particular member. And I really wasn't expecting that you would attempt to justify your behaviour. Didn't you get my PM?

This will not deteriorate into a juvinile point scoring contest. Please feel free to PM or email me if you would like to discuss how forum members should conduct themselves, but please understand, such a discussion will not be permitted here.

[John]

appreciate your critique - wonder what others say?

In my opinion you meet or exceed your customers' expectations mikeysaling.

All else is vanity.

[mikeysaling]

thanks john - do our best in our restricted space - found quite early on that to offer too much choice involves using lots of space and without renting premises etc (and all that it invloves) we are better off in 1. niche market 2. limited product range : in the latter case all frames the same 2 mouldings (plus a reserve backup outer) crimson or blue backing ! 2mm glass and 2mm mdf! voila! To be honest we spend more time on research , locating and obtaining medal/badge stock and sitting down with customers to plan layout etc.

[Trigger]

We really liked what you have done with these medals and other bits and bobs.

We did a whole wall full of medals for our local BL recently - three different backing board colours to denote, army, RAF or RN and all with the same outer size and all "get-attable" for future reference or cleaning if they so wished. Each set had been donated to the BL by the family of the person concerned and so a small caption was included with their name, rank and number. When put up on one wall the 20 odd sets looked fantastic. And no, we didn't use UV glass or anything other than our normal high standards - the BL couldn't afford it and they wanted to get the whole lot done together. THEY chose the option that suited them after being given all the necessary information. At the end of the day you can't do fairer then inform people and let them make their own choices.

They were happy, we were happy and the wall is a great memorial to a truly brave and special group of local men.

Trigger

[mikeysaling]

hi trigger,

thanks for that comment - would really like to see a pic of your BL frame - if you get a chance can you do a photo for the forum? doesn't need to be a lord lichfield job just so we can see layout etc - always usefull for the future - some where i have a picture of a quite large family group (not quite as large as yours) but- ill look for it and post it

mikey

[Nigel Nobody]

Mikey,
You asked what others think:
You are doing a really nice job. The end result look great!

I'm a great believer in doing the best I can and the best that my customers will allow me to do, to preserve their items by using preservation materials and techniques.
It appears from your comments about your work that you may not be using those materials and techniques in order that you can be competitive with others on price. If that works for you, that's great, but I would like to encourage you, and others, to broadening your outlook into areas other than just price.

It's not that difficult to inform customers about preservation, explain why it should be considered and give them a price that includes it. Your fallback position can be whatever you currently do if the customer is only concerned with price! Even if you get one job out of every 100 at the higher price it will be more profit for you. (I get a much larger proportion than that!)

I have this John Ruskin quote hanging on the wall in my shop and I sometimes point it out to people when explaining the benefits of doing a better job.
"There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey."

[mikeysaling]

small world that quote - less that 20 miles from me in chelmsford (essex) is the john ruskin university and a friend of mine , a neighbour really , had that quote framed on the wall of his study!!! and its true - i know its true - but in the uk at present a lot of folk are feeling the pinch and less building less people moving etc etc - the framing business is having a hard time! Having said that - because we really only do medals militaria etc we are in a niche market and you would think that would just carry on as it always has, but no - people are really watching the pennies these days - we meet people in the legion (british legion) OAP's that want things framed but cannot and really cannot afford the cost of real conservation framing (believe me i'd do it if required) but the difference in price can be quite large. We are a daft couple of old buggers we have framed things at cost for our mates in the BL.

Sort of a by the way thing - the financial effect of world economics right now is that older more prudent people who have saved all their lives are now heavily penalised by low interest rates - many of these 'senior' citizens are our customers - the service they want from us is a bit of history to pass down - and in that respect -YES - conservation framing is worthwhile. But on balance - hand on heart - i cannot recommend to our customers spending maybe twice as much when i'm not sure myself how much longer the contents will last conservation v's standard.

still love your conservation frame though!!!

[Nigel Nobody]

i cannot recommend to our customers spending maybe twice as much when i'm not sure myself how much longer the contents will last conservation v's standard.

Mikey,
I wonder what would convince you?
If there were many, many paper conservators, art conservators and highly experienced & trained framers who have more experience and knowledge than you or I, who believed it was vital, would that convince you?

I think it's a very unwise proposition for any of us to assume that, without any training and with only our own closeted, self taught experience, we can make judgments on whether conservation framing will or will not help items last longer than framing without any conservation considerations!

We need to learn from people who have had training and many years of experience in their specialist field! The only time I will cease to learn from others will be the day I am taken away in a wooden box!

PS. I never give my customers advice on how much to spend. I always explain what I recommend and why, then give them a price and let them make a decision!
PPS. Never, never think like a customer!

[John]

When an obviously intelligent and informed framer chooses, in consultation with his customer, an appropriate level of framing, I think that we should leave it at that. It could well be be a mistake, and a bit patronising in such an instance, to assume that the reason why the work is not being carried out to a certain standard is because of a lack of knowledge.

I want everyone on this forum to feel free to discuss all framing techniques, regardless of level, without feeling that they are going to be continually judged and found wanting.

[Not your average framer]

As Mickey has pointed out, he is in a niche market and he is obviously aiming to set high standards for his work. As he has already said, many of his customers have a limited income and price can be make or break.

As most of us know, there are negative concerns about using MDF when framing treasured items, but so far no one has mentioned any similarly priced alternatives to MDF which offer less grounds for concern.

I stock a range of different backing boards for different cutomers price concerns and framing requirements. One of these is a solid backing board called "Kraft core", which is acid free, alkaline buffer, has excellent rigidity and is reasonably competitive with MDF for price.

Another is the Simons "Back 10" which is a similar board, but includes a built in barrier board and a water resistant coating on the reverse. Back 10 cost a little more, but is still a good spec for the money. I also stock other higher specification boards where the requirements and budgets will permit.

Anyone want to suggest a few other "appropiately priced" solutions, which won't break the bank?

[mikeysaling]

Thanks - yes backing boards i would like to look at a possible alternative - cannot find 'kraft core' board on google !! can you give me a suppliers name ? Back boards would need to be as rigid as mdf and 2/3 mm thick as they need to be removed any suggestions welcome.

[Not your average framer]

cannot find 'kraft core' board on google !! can you give me a suppliers name ?

I only know of two suppliers, but there may be more, check out your local independant suppliers and see which boards they offer. The two suppliers I know of are, Venton Enterprises (in Kelly Bray, Cornwall), or Solid Glass (in Goole).

[bluboy]

Hi Mickey

What are you using to hold the palque in place?

[mikeysaling]

hi bluboy - thats 3 mighty mounts from lion page 61 2772 - i put felt bumpers on the back of the plaque to make a secure job - again lion supplied

mikey

[Nigel Nobody]

When an obviously intelligent and informed framer chooses, in consultation with his customer, an appropriate level of framing, I think that we should leave it at that. It could well be be a mistake, and a bit patronising in such an instance, to assume that the reason why the work is not being carried out to a certain standard is because of a lack of knowledge.

If this reply was directed at my post, I apologise if I was thought to be 'patronising' anyone, (I included myself in the lack of knowledge comment) as that was not the intention. I think the language barrier must be to blame!

I want everyone on this forum to feel free to discuss all framing techniques, regardless of level, without feeling that they are going to be continually judged and found wanting.

Again, no intention of being judgmental, just informative.

I like to be informative to others when I can, so that someone can learn something from my mistakes and experience. I'm quite sure most people on this forum who have been in the industry for a while would have similar views.

I'm frightened half to death to mention to Mike that "Mighty Mounts" are affected by UV light and become brittle and fail after a while in case this is thought to be 'judgmental'!