And How do I Mount This?

[Roboframer]

I doubt very much, due to the quote below, if I'd accept this job - falls in to my 'no thanks' category, along with block-mounting, clip frames ..... and other stuff.

Customer doesn't want then framed, but wants them individually mounted like plaques.

But I'd happily mount (but not on a wooden plaque) and frame them (or just frame them if they were already mounted on a wooden plaque) and it's interesting to see others' solutions, because I'm assuming they would use the same methods if they were framing these objects, despite tried and tested methods and advice given by highly respected and vastly experienced framing educators (Merlin's link)

Nope - not even gonna entertain that - not going to try it to see if I like it; not gonna impress upon my customers that what I do leaves their artwork JUST as they brought it in to me. Nope - I've got a tube of this gunk an' I'm gonna slap it on the back of your thing. Works for my teeth!

If mounting and framing these I'd use formed rods - they are secure, assuming normal handling - which would be 'careful'. Most stuff that leaves our doors needs 'careful' handling.

OK - you can see them, but they're less conspicuous than mighty mounts - it's a price paid for a non-invasive method and I certainly would not use them, or mighty mounts, or spring plate hangers, as a back up to adhesive.

One thing sets this method apart from much else on this thread so far. Skill - not cost, not sourcing of materials - skill.

[mikeysaling]

are we going round in circles

[Roboframer]

I would consider attaching earth magnets to the back of the copper (unfortunately copper isn't magnetic unless it has been mixed with other magnetic metals).

Less destructive than glue

How would you fix the magnet to the copper?

I would use have to use glue.

.....the glue is on the reverse of the magnets.

Therefore the object is fixed with glue; not magnets.

Nearly - The object is attached with magnets - the magnets are attached with glue

Gordon Bennet - the object is not magnetic - you have to glue the magnets to the copper, therefore the bond depends on the glue; not the magnets. What happens if the glue fails? (the object falls off!)

This would be the same ......... You have a metal wall, you put a magnet on it and glue a piece of copper to the magnet.

Almost forgot Welcome to the forum

[mikeysaling]

hey robo!! not many people know but all lotus cars are glued (not welded) as arethe vauxhall vx 220 - these cars are super strong!! don't knock glue! also airbus uses glue for many parts that were previously welded soldered etc . surely us framers can use it with confidence - its chosing the right glue!!

[Roboframer]

Sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiightly different!

If someone wanted a Lotus or any other car, or a plane framed ....... in a very big frame of course ...... and said they wanted it kept in it's original condition ....... or if you felt any responsibility for keeping it in its original condition, glue would not be the answer.

I don't even use glue on my frame mitres - I drill holes and hammer in rare earth magnets - only complaints I've had is when there's a pair of frames wrapped back-to-back and the customer can't separate 'em.

[Nigel Nobody]

hey robo!! not many people know but all lotus cars are glued (not welded) as arethe vauxhall vx 220 - these cars are super strong!!

The assumption here is that Lotus and Vauxhall have infinite amounts of funding and facilities to research glues and their adhesion to the bit they want to 'adhede'. Also those vehicles probably won't have to last as long as our customers expect their framing to last. ie....several lifetimes!

Hands up those framers who have the same amount of funding and research facilities as Lotus???

PS. I wouldn't mind having a go at framing a Lotus, but I would use formed rods, not glue, to mount it!

[mikeysaling]

but thanks to lotus we can buy the same glue! its stronger than a weld! can you buy vx 220's in aus? actually faster than a lotus - same chassis - all glued together great stuff! lewis hamilton found you cannot push limits in aus! anyway frames - whats wrong with glue? item in question glue m mounts and velcro YES..................... the answer customer is happy with that!

[mikeysaling]

to be serious for a minute i have an obe that was broken when we received it and we glued the crown back on - the family were not happy to have a repaired medal(award) and wanted a replacement - no problem i have an original and they have a replacement !!! they know this and are quite happy! some folk are plain daft ! same with all manner of militaria most of our frames have new ribbons (we always give back the originals) but its the display they look for! to use jk rowlings words we deal with a lot of muggles! they know the price of everything but the value of nothing

To be very honest i don't think people give a **** about the next generation - 'ITS ALL THE SAME IN A HUNDRED YEARS' is the attitude . bit like politicians how far ahead do they care about! call me a cynic if you like - but remember i spent 30 years in banking.

[framemaker]

I like the idea of the formed rods, I have not used them before and I would like to source the wire, tubing etc to give it a go sometime.

I have been looking into using adhesives on copper/wood over the last week or so for my own framing dilemma, as formed rods or similar are not an option.

I would not use silicone. I think the unsuitability has been covered here a few times before.
I have found one reference to the 'possibility' a component (amine), in the hardener of some 2 part epoxy adhesives causing signs of corrosion when used directly on copper, but many other references of epoxy being used as corrosion inhibitors so I would not worry about this too much.

There are methods of using adhesives which are far from straight forward, take skill and practice, are used by museums and conservators, and are fully reversible.

With out waffling on (after all don't really know what I am talking about), I would router out four slight recesses in the wood, about 1/2" to 1" in from the edge of the object, about 1/8" deep. I would probably try and leave the area under the object unfinished to avoid complications with wax or other finishes. I would seal the back of the copper and the wood area beneath the object with Paraloid B72 in toluene, this must be left to fully dry and the solvent evaporate. Then use a two part epoxy adhesive in the four recesses to secure the object. The epoxy is adhering to the Paraloid, and not the copper.

Then in the future the Paraloid barrier layer can be easily reversed, meaning the object can be removed, and will still be in its original condition.

This would not be a straight forward process, the strength and mixing of the barrier adhesive takes experience, perhaps holes should be drilled through the wood so it would be easier to reverse the bond, and so on would need to be considered.

It at least shows that adhesive can be used, and to a high standard at that.

[prospero]

This is an interesting thread.

Obviously the items were never meant to be mounted. Or they would have had some fixing tabs or whatever built in. As previously recounted, there are two ways: Glue them and risk glue failure. Not mention the gluing process physically alters the pieces. Or use a mechanical method which is more reliable and totally reversible. But no matter how unobtrusive, there really is no way you can do this without the fixings being visible to some extent.

The best solution is to employ an invisible magic pixie to hold it in his little hands. Unfortunately they don't exist.

[pinkybanks]

This is an interesting thread.


The best solution is to employ an invisible magic pixie to hold it in his little hands. Unfortunately they don't exist.

You've shattered my dreams, next you'll dismiss the tooth fairy.

[Roboframer]

I like the idea of the formed rods, I have not used them before and I would like to source the wire, tubing etc to give it a go sometime.

RS Components for shrink tubing - if you register with them you'll have to tell a porky or two when it comes to what you do as what we do isn't covered in the drop-down! Their website is offline at the mo' http://www.rs-components.com/offline/UKoffline.htm A super-efficient company, next-day is standard - Last (first) time I used them I ordered at about 7:30 pm and the stuff arrived next day.

As for steel rods I've never looked at piano wire - have always found something in my own shop. E.g. we sell loads of jewellery-making stuff including steel rings for chokers/bracelets in several thicknesses.

[Not your average framer]

I would consider attaching earth magnets to the back of the copper (unfortunately copper isn't magnetic unless it has been mixed with other magnetic metals).

Less destructive than glue

How would you fix the magnet to the copper?

I would use have to use glue.

.....the glue is on the reverse of the magnets.

Have I missed something? Maybe I'm losing the plot, but what's the advantage in doing it with glue and magnets?

[Roboframer]

To be very honest i don't think people give a **** about the next generation - 'ITS ALL THE SAME IN A HUNDRED YEARS' is the attitude . .

Probably worthy of a topic of its own but anyway - I totally agree with you.

Of course 99.999% of customers are thinking of presentation only - they want it to look nice - full stop ('period')

With a bit of capital to get some pro equipment, a fair eye for design and colour (color) and a fair grasp of basic maths - most anyone can frame something to make it look nice and earn a few quid while they're at it.

Description above accounts for how many framers I wonder? You've got two people each side of a sales counter - neither give a shit but one can make a frame.

If the one that can make a frame DID give a shit then maybe - once s/he'd pointed out a few things, the other one would give one too.

People come to us believing we know what we are doing - if we tell them that copydex is 'acid free' and 'reversible' for needlework, they'll believe us.

If their watercolour that cost them £3,000 - or the painting they just found that their late mother did when she was 6 that is worth zip - is cockled - and we tell them we can make it flat with some 'acid free' adhesive - they'll believe and trust us - and it will look just fab - nice and flat .............. embalmed.

Framers that offer that sort of advice probably win customers from me because they are cheaper but I win my fair share back from those likes too when I explain what damage can be done - quickly too, not talking generations; talking instant - feathers get spat at our place very regularly.

[Roboframer]

Apols for naughty word - thought it would be auto-censored

[John]

The forum's auto-censoring feature is selective.

What you wrote is quite OK Roboframer. Whereas posting something like, the forum administrator is a s**t, is not.

See?

[Perfection]

Gents,

This has been one of the most interesting threads I've seen in my short time on the forum. I've probably picked up more advice & guidance than I could hope to use in the next 4 years. Laughed a lot, gnashed my teeth a bit and spent an hour looking at glues.

In the meantime, the same customer has just presented me with a 1.5m x .6m painting on the back of an old Brazilian coffee chest to frame.

Awesome customer!

PS - it was the same customer who also gave me the triangle!!

P

[markw]

These objects are going on a plaque - they aren't going into a protective environment and the customer doesn't mind them being glued. Keep life simple - Glue something inside the object that can be attached to the plaque - make it look nice and neat - hand it back to customer ensuring you have made a nice fat profit for your labour.

If customer comes in asking you to do all you can to preserve the objects - then advise putting them on a plaque is a bad idea.

ps - it hasnt been proved that the forum administrator isnt a s**t.

[mikeysaling]

any chance of a picture? for the coffee chest pic

[Perfection]

Here it is - 2 sides of a coffee chest, nailed together onto a pice of 2x1 across the back and painted pretty stylish we thought. It's going into a Frintons plain white 2.5" wide moulding with a 2" deep rebate and will need all of 6metres to frame it.

P