Commercial Framers vs Conservation Framers

[stcstc]

how about we say

we are all framers, each with our special niche.

mine would be volume stuff, but also doing the printing.

[Roboframer]

I just wish people would accept the fact that commercial framers are on the whole accomplished framers.

Please please direct us to where anyone (bar yourself) said that wasn't the case

it seems to raise the issue that framers whose business deals with large volume framing orders cannot produce the same quality of work as a traditional bespoke framer. There also seems to be an implication that because they undertake the work, their knowledge regarding conservation issues or ability to frame to that level is less than a bespoke framer.

Again - where/when?

[Not your average framer]

commercial framers are on the whole accomplished framers.

They have to be! When competing on both price and quality, they really have to know their stuff. Especially in the current economic climate.

[Roboframer]

how about we say we are all framers, each with our special niche. Mine would be volume stuff, but also doing the printing.

Mine would be - well, my website's in my profile and out of the 5 main pages - and you can forget the 'art' one, so make that 4 - framing is 25% of it but represents 50% of the annual sales.

I'm a custom framer that can handle the odd corporate order. But I'm a wannabee custom AND commercial framer but can't find the staff ....... not even for just the custom side - and if I could I'd probably cease to be a framer and become someone that has a framing business.

I don't even see what we have AS a business really, just a shop, a nice warm friendly place that has evolved by demand in the village where we live. We had a dream of doing things we like to do for a living the best way we could whilst also not having to have a 'job' - I don't like it when it gets too much like 'work'

[stcstc]

thats cool robo

my plan is work my nuts off for the next 10 year, sell the business and sit on my ass after that

I see what i do as a means to and end,although i really do enjoy what i do, it is there to facilitate life rather than it being my life

[Graysalchemy]

I'm a custom framer that can handle the odd corporate order. But I'm a wannabee custom AND commercial framer but can't find the staff ....... not even for just the custom side - and if I could I'd probably cease to be a framer and become someone that has a framing business.

I actually work on my own with the odd occasional help with wrapping and painting. Staff isn't every thing, what I find more important is space and organisation, oh my machines. I have probably spent £30K on machines over the past 5 years, now it would have cost me more than that to employ a member of staff for five years yet my machines are worth more than a member of staff with regards to time saved.

I can cut and joint about 40-50 frames an hour depending on how big the moulding is and how many pins it takes. 50 mounts would probably take 30 mins to cut and the glass and back the same. I usually stick picture into the mounts as I am cutting the mounts so that is just time saved.So I can assemble the parts for 50 frames in 2-3 hrs. Now they obviously need assembling into finished product. As they are low value and probably being hung straight into a hotel a few days latter, they certainly don't need taping and only need handy wrapping in pairs so no bubble wrap or corners.

So to actually assemble I clean the glass and place an assembled mount on top then the backing and put it in a pile. Once I have a pile I take a stack of frames, place the glass/mount/back sandwich into the frame and staple, and stack them up face to face for wrapping, wrap and stack on a palette. Job done.

If I don't complete 50 frames in about 5 hrs then I am slacking. 50 frames is about £600.00, not bad for half a day and all on my own.

As I said it does require space, space for big machines, boxes of mouldings and space to place assembled components. However I pay less now for 3800 sq ft than i did 10 yrs ago for 700 sq ft of retail. As I have said I used to operate out of the shop then when I went totally commercial I had 800sq ft which was too small. Once I moved I was able to buy a saw (because I had 3 phase) and I had more space to operate my cmc properly, (they are easier to run when you have plenty of spare bench space around to slide a sheet off mounts of the table to collate whilst the machine is cutting the next sheet).

So you don't need staff just space machines and a little bit of organisation to do things quicker and more efficiently.

And as for being a wannabee commercial/bespoke framer I thought there was a commercial framer in you. I think you could find a good business model making use of you conservation skills but on a commercial scale, more and more of my work is conservation(ish) and it is a direction I would like to move towards, I much rather frame up an original watercolour or limited edition print by an artist who I appreciated than the same old photo of a wine glass, but then when I do commercial jobs it is that keeps me going.

Cheers

Alistair

[prospero]

Thinking about it..... Most of the framing I do could be classed as commercial. I have a handful of regular customers who are either gallery owners or artists (or both in some cases). The work is always interesting. Of course these people have friends and contacts who they send along to get stuff framed. I will frame things for people who drop into the shop, but to be quite candid, if I never got another cert or family photo to frame I wouldn't loose too much sleep.
In my setup, these jobs just don't pay. Most of the time, if people don't have a firm idea on the frame they want, I say "let me frame it and if you don't like the result, I'll do it again." Sounds a bit risky, but I have never had anyone not like one. This way everybody wins. No wasting hours with people trawling though 100's of design ideas which only confuse them.
I have over the years accumulated a vast array of mouldings and mountboard - not an enormous amount, but a wide selection. So I can generally use up odd bits and give people a really classy frame for not a lot of cash.
Of course there are exceptions. A lady recently came in with a little watercolour. Not a very spectacular one, just a typical holiday souvenir. It was in a GREEN mount, which did nothing for it. And I told her so. She then wanted to look at samples of mountboard.....
Now this is a job I would have framed up using stuff I had on the plot and charged about £30-40 for. If I had let her loose of the 100's of samples I have (very few of which I actually have stock of) she would have been umming and arring for hours and then picked one that I haven't got (or is not easily available). Ordering a pack + carriage for a 3x8 painting would have to be factored into the cost. Add to this the 'design time' and the job would have to be £120-150 to be worth it to me. (hadn't even started on the mouldings....)
Couldn't budge her. She went away and I wasn't exactly sorry.
Like a lot of members, I'm basically a one man band. You can't do everything and I think that as we go along we tend to gravitate toward aspects of the trade that interest us more (and pay best). Last year I decided to have a major revamp of the workshop which meant shoving lots of stuff into the 'retail' area. I had the front door shut with a notice on asking people to go round to the side door. Far from losing out I actually got a lot more done. This arrangement had the effect of filtering out all the tyre-kickers. Anyone who took the trouble to actually walk another 30ft and ring the doorbell was a serious customer. Even now, 90% of the work comes in the side door.

As for conservation, I think the major skill in framing is not so much knowing conservation techniques but knowing when they are called for.

[Roboframer]

I think it's knowing every technique you possibly can, visualising the best one the second you clap eyes on anything and giving options if for any reason it turns out to be unsuitable. Like I said in the 'Conservation Conversation' thread - there's many techniques that are simple, effective, fast and inexpensive ... cheap as chips even, that are also reversible.

Staff isn't everything

It bleedin' well is If you're open to the public 6 days and seeing 80 customers (not all on the framing side of course) a day! My framer isn't the best at taking framing orders - my wife's Ok but takes too long and never puts mouldings back in the right place, or back at all, plus she's got enough on her plate with the craft/etc side and is also the 'brain' of the shop. I work for her!

Some days I hardly get in to the workshop and without a framer, that, or even half a day with nothing being made, would mean working nights/Sundays, which I vowed, a long time ago, that I'd never do again.

[stcstc]

I am kinda lucky

my workshop is also my shop basically


which means while talking to people i can also be doing things, without seeming like i am ignoring them etc

Mind most of my work comes from social media not from walk in

I dont like the idea having everyone walking in browsing etc. also if someone wants much of my time i want them to be spending a decent amount. average would be for 20 mins of my time designing i want them spending around 1k of prints and frames

dont wanna have to spend 20 mins with granny so she can spend say 100 quid, its not worth it

[Graysalchemy]

That is the beauty of commercial framing we don't have to trawl through 80 mrs joneses to get our work. However I do get pestered by designers for quotes most of which are long forgotten about by the time they come to fruition. However what work we do get is resonable sized, so the effort is worthwhile other things are on going 'make me another 30 sets of bedroom frames'.

We may have to charge less for a job but they are still profitable and enjoyable. If they weren't then I would be out of business.

I don't miss the high street my business is far more profitable but without the high street I would not have got my lucky break and I would probably be doing something else now.

Cheers

Alistair

[Roboframer]

In a shop our size we wouldn't survive on framing alone, or with framing and the usual stuff the average frameshop does as well, like 'art', maybe a bit of giftware, maybe some artist materials, greetings cards etc. Like I've said, it's about 50% of annual sales which without the other 50% would have us out.

We get thousands of 'Mrs Joneses' - thing is 90% of them, and the Mr Joneses, would never ever ..... ever ... set foot in a stand-alone frameshop, but a decent enough % of that 90% - whether they came for the dry cleaning, a 10p photocopy, ribbon ..... whatever, return for framing. Plus a fair amount of Mr & Mrs Ponsonby Smallpiece-Smythes too!

[stcstc]

sounds like you have a good mix robo

its really interesting to see the difference and how wide the variance in what we do to make a living is

i always find it interesting to talk to framers about the business side of things, i learn something from everyone i talk to

I also find places like this you learn soooo much, but only get out what ya put in

[Not your average framer]

This thread has evolved into something really informative. I don't know about everyone else, but I've learnt quite a lot from reading the posts in this thread.