The Framers Forum

Oh Calico

I fail to understand the type of service from Lion you expect or expected, I feel that this is a swipe at one of the best run frame equipment and sundries that exists in the UK, (unless someone can prove otherwise) I also think that an apology to Lion should now come forth, it has in the past been the case that person/s have been banned from the forum for less.

My business is not what you might call large but I find that if help is required then by phoning ANY of the suppliers you can get the help required, I now because I have done it.

Ian

Oh Calico

I fail to understand the type of service from Lion you expect or expected, I feel that this is a swipe at one of the best run frame equipment and sundries that exists in the UK, (unless someone can prove otherwise) I also think that an apology to Lion should now come forth, it has in the past been the case that person/s have been banned from the forum for less.

My business is not what you might call large but I find that if help is required then by phoning ANY of the suppliers you can get the help required, I now because I have done it.

Ian

Not your average framer wrote:
The supplier in question is one of the larger of the U.K. suppliers and is very pro-active in the industry putting on events for framers with leading speakers and demonstrators at their own expense for the benefit of us all.

I thought Lion was a succseful business, you make it sound like a not for profit organisation they speculate to accumalate at their "own expense", but normally to sell product or raise profile through sponsorship. As I recall wasn't the last training day at Lion £50.00 a head. This must have at least covered their costs.

I get the impression that Calico is disapponted with the ongoing relationship with Lion despite having spent quite a lot with them.
He was just having a bit of a moan, and I'm surprised his comments were worthy of a repremand. If Lion monitor this forum as you say they do, why havent they addresed his issues publicly?

Well said Framerpicture i totally agree

silvercleave wrote:Oh Calico

it has in the past been the case that person/s have been banned from the forum for less.

Ian

I wan't going to post any more on this for the fear of reprisal and not to blow this more out of proportion than it already was, but since everyone is being negative towards Calico I feel I have to speak out.

Why is everyone so frightened of Lion on this forum?

Lion gets mentioned the thread gets closed and someone gets banned (probably me).

I don't like this fear on this site that you will get jumped on if you mention Lion in a slight less than rosy light. All of our suppliers have their faults as we do in the eyes of our customers. Simons have been the butt end of many a joke regarding their catalogue or website and no one is ever reprimanded over that so why Lion?

I personally don't think what Calico said was that bad. He is a little upset that he has, in his mind spent a considerable sum of money and now when he looks for support it is not forth coming and he doesn't feel appreciated as a customer. That is all, he hasn't told everyone never to use them again, he hasn't slandered them or told lies of them. Are Lion upset that he has said such words? If it was one of my customers I would be mortified and be looking at rectifying the problem, Lion may well be doing that as we speak.

IMHO jumping on people like that doesn't do Lion any favours as you have now attracted more negative attention towards them, which if Lion was my company I wouldn't be happy with that.

If lion is unhappy let them speak, they are after all contributors.

Alistair

CalicoFraming wrote: I bought all my start up kit from them - nearly £3k worth of stuff! - but they've shown zero interest in me and my business since then and personally I don't find them very friendly.

Actually I don't think Calico has said that they haven't given support. Merely that he finds them too 'business-like' and that he would prefer to deal with more relaxed and friendly suppliers.

Some of us would prefer the business-like approach from a supplier, others the more friendly relaxed approach. Personally, I don't mind which approach is taken as long as they get my order correct and on time.

I use several suppliers myself, and have never used Lion due to their minimum order value. I tend to use each supplier for certain items, having a main moulding supplier, a glass supplier, a mat / board supplier and using each for smaller additional items to make up the minimum order value as necessary. Otherwise, I just use whichever one sells the stuff I need the cheapest.

If I get to be a lot busier, I might very well use an additional much larger supplier, but I don't think I would not use the existing suppliers. They have served me well and I believe in building upon business relationships.

I think the only suppliers that have reps are Arqadia and Simons. Lion certainly don't have sales people to follow up. It's their business model. However Lion are always extremely helpful and I think have the widest selection of "sundries" of any supplier. Their deliveries are extremely well packed and it is pretty rare for stuff to be out of stock. They also completely solve issues with machinery even if it takes a lot of effort.

Arqadia and Simons both regularly call us or pop in and show new lines, but as said in earlier posts, we limit the number of suppliers to get the best spread and be able to make up reasonable orders. I have no issues with any of our current suppliers - but we do have to pay some carriage for overnight unfortunately.

We considered chop, but it is very expensve, and there is no practice bits for pinning on the underpinner. One mistake and its another set of chop. The only chop we use are aluminium frame kits.

Framerpicture wrote:I thought Lion was a succseful business, you make it sound like a not for profit organisation they speculate to accumalate at their "own expense", but normally to sell product or raise profile through sponsorship. As I recall wasn't the last training day at Lion £50.00 a head. This must have at least covered their costs.

I get the impression that Calico is disapponted with the ongoing relationship with Lion despite having spent quite a lot with them.
He was just having a bit of a moan, and I'm surprised his comments were worthy of a repremand. If Lion monitor this forum as you say they do, why havent they addresed his issues publicly?

No one was getting a reprimand. I merely advised a new member of what is expected by the forum when giving negative comments about suppliers. It was for information only. No posts were removed, or edited and no one has any black marks against them.

BTW, I fully accept your above comments and also admit that I did not know that Lion make a charge for these events. It's very hard to make any comments as a moderator, without someone objecting. I try to be kind and respectful to all and I'm always willing to say sorry , if I get it wrong, or if I unintentionally cause offence. I do also listen to opinions, or criticism and I'm always willing respond constructively where I can learn and do better.

As a general rule suppliers find it very difficult to respond to negative comments of any kind of vague nature and tend to lie low rather than get involved. There are those who've had a good bashing over things that have happened years ago, when everyone else jumps in. It is all too easy for these suppliers to decide not to participate, rather than invite negative comments when they don't have to. The current policy is not something which has been just plucked out of the air, but has evolved over time in response the difficulties and problems which some of these situations can cause.

If you don't think that suppliers have nothing to say when they feel unfairly treated, well they do! And John has to handle all that. No policy is ever perfect, or foolproof, but I do my best and try to follow forum rule number 1 and be nice to everyone.

Vince442 wrote:Actually I don't think Calico has said that they haven't given support. Merely that he finds them too 'business-like' and that he would prefer to deal with more relaxed and friendly suppliers.

I don't think anyone would have been troubled about it, if it was put like that originally.

The forum is healthy when it's on the edge.

I do not believe Calico venomously slagged anyone off, nor do I believe he needs to apologise to anyone. It was merely a moan, probably born out of frustration as we have all felt at some point on our journey.

If I was a representative for one of the suppliers, I would see this as a golden opportunity to love this guy up, mop his brow and say "there, there, there all will be ok and I will look after you"! He would be mine forever!!!!

If we are spending good money with any supplier, we hope to receive their help and support as part of the package.

Please do not throw me off, I promise to be nice

I don't usually get involved in these types of discussions. However, after following the forum and some of it's recent posts where people seem to be increasingly reprimanded for expressing an opinion, I decided that maybe I'd try to put a positive spin on this discussion instead.

Surely from a suppliers point of view, criticism can become a positive thing. Often as a supplier we can all live in our own cosy little world thinking everything is hunkydory. There can be times though when a problem can occur which we are unaware of existing until it's actually pointed out to us. Now some people may see this as a criticism but I personally would look at is as been a useful pointer as to how I could improve my service/product to my customer. Afterall developing a good relationship and keeping existing customers happy is how a business thrives and increases it's profits without the added expense of looking for new business.

I didn't see anything in Calico's post that I would say put any supplier in a bad light. They were just merely expressing an opinion as to the type of service they'd like to receive from a supplier and as far as I can see there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes businesses can grow so much that they loose sight of the service they set out to offer to their customers in the first place (and no i'm not having a go at any particular company, i'm just making this statement as a bit of a generalisation as i've seen it happen in many other industries not just ours).

At the end of the day business is business. If someone isn't happy with the service then they don't have to buy. They can vote with their wallets and take their business elsewhere, but I always think it pays to listen to feedback as we can all make improvements!

DEEPJOY wrote:The forum is healthy when it's on the edge.

Yes and it's good fun too!

DEEPJOY wrote:I do not believe Calico venomously slagged anyone off, nor do I believe he needs to apologise to anyone.

I agree! Please read what I said, it was not a repremand.

DEEPJOY wrote:Please do not throw me off, I promise to be nice

I promise to be nice too! BTW, I don't mind people having a go at me as long as they are nice about it. Although I'm a moderator, I'm still a normal member of the forum and I can still be removed, or replaced if I fail to behave and treat offers fairly. I think it's been a good discussion too!

OK, come on people, hugs and kisses all round. No harm done, etc.

Sorry for my poor choice of wording originally and I shall go and spend a bit of money with Lion by way of a peace offering (although to their credit they seem to be the only ones not to have been bothered by my little moan!).

And I do think it's healthy that there should be an exchange of views on the forum/within the industry - it all helps to keep us sharp. And the issue of customer service is always important and if we've all had a bit of think on it, that's no bad thing.

Look, I love the support I've had on this forum as a framing newbie and I hope no-one's ego has been unduly bruised. Come on, huddle up... mwah, mwah, MWAH XXX

This might be difficult to administer but would it not be possible for any post that contains something critical about a trade supplier to be removed from view until it can be established correct communication between the two parties had taken place.

well maybe not automatically

but the moderators can do that kind of stuff

Jonny2morsos wrote:would it not be possible for any post that contains something critical about a trade supplier to be removed from view until it can be established correct communication between the two parties had taken place.

I does happen like that sometimes, but it would need to be something causing real concern for this to happen. There was a case before I was a moderator where I mediated between one framer and a supplier where there was an issue about sharpening Morso blades.

I agreed to visit the framers premises and try and see what was wrong, but first I suggested to the parties concerned that the thread should be pulled, as the situation was getting too difficult. The matter was resolved and everybody seemed quite happy with the outcome.

Nothing is ever straight forward, but that's life.
Mark

CalicoFraming wrote: I'd actually welcome the odd sales call or request from a rep to drop by and see how it's going. This ISN'T particular to Lion! It's a GENERAL point! I hope the clarifies things and that no offence has been caused.
thanks,
Calico

I think Calico has an incredibly valid point here, I had the first reps prospecting call at the shop last week in 8 years, thats right 8 years! He will get some business from me. What I find in this business is exactly what has been said previously, the sales teams are in the main just order takers with no pro-active efforts whatsoever. I've offered one supplier a greater share of my range if they would come and talk to me about it, for the last 2 years at least. All I get in response is "I'll be down to see you soon". They are the ones who are losing out, I'm still making the sales, just not with their mouldings. They've got loads of great designs in their range, top quality stuff, but my other supplier is getting the orders because the Rep visits me and is keeping me up to date with new products.

Another supplier on here regularly, promised me a catalogue and a reps visit, nothing!


My average order value at "trade" is around £140 = tax, three or more times a week! So come on moulding suppliers, get off your backsides, come and open a new account, or ressurect an old one.

And if you want to know how a rep should work, I used to be one, I'm available for consultation and training at very reasonable rates!!!

For us, we used to have 2 targets, one for value of sales and one for opening (and retaining) new accounts. It was not so much about how many accounts you could visit in a week, but how high the quality of those visits was.

The two companies that get the lion share of my business are the ones who visit me, chat with me, show me new mouldings, which in turn I can show to my clients. The one supplier which doesn't get much business is the one who doesn't visit and never actually physically shows me new product, he does however send the odd sample but they often don't get opened.

In defence of reps most of them have an extremely large area to cover. My arqadia rep visits on a 8-10 week cycle which is quite a long time, but he has such a large area, some reps and particularly self employed agents will only visit those that they know they are going to get an order from.

sorry but i dont want the reps, they take my time, and i dont really gain from them coming

would rather have good people on the end of a phone so if i need them they are they

Never underestimate the importance of customer satisfaction and loyalty.

My background is, amongst other things, as a professionally qualified marketer, and it's axiomatic in that profession that customer loyalty is everything. It costs far more to win a new customer than it does to retain one. That's the theory, and we all know it's the reality too - you've probably got a loyalty card or two in your wallet, right? Big successful companies do this for a reason - it works!

It's equally axiomatic that if something goes right for a customer, they'll tell a couple of people, if something goes wrong, they'll tell TEN people! The details etc. are irrelevant - if you tell your mate down the pub that you had a disappointing experience at the local chinese takeaway the other night, he's not going to cross-examine you on it or offer to mediate, he's just going to absorb a vague sense that the restaurant doesn't get good press. Again this is theory amongst marketers but we've all had experience of how this works in real life too.

As for businesses being able to handle it when they get some negative feedback, when one of my customers lets me know they're not happy with something, I treat it like gold dust. I'd be a fool to ignore it and I don't care whether I think they're being fair, rational, etc. - the customer is always right. I use their feedback to helps me know which direction to take my business in and I show them a bit of extra love. I know that people don't often expect suppliers to make it right by them if they're feeling unhappy, so when the supplier does come good, it surprises and delights and generates that most precious of things, customer loyalty.

Consumers in whatever industry are getting more and more demanding, and industry is getting more and more sophisticated in responding to this. Anyone these days just making the sale and leaving it at that is missing a trick.

Whilst writing this I did get a call from Lion and I thought they handled it very well indeed. So now I feel better disposed to them (although as I said to them I never had a big beef with them anyway) and shall look again at how we can do a bit of business.

Calico