Plastic mouldings revisited.

[osgood]

I recently had to make up an order for a customer who supplied several lengths of fairly large profile plastic moulding + the recommended glue - it was a pig to cut and dismal to join ( Morso + Casesse Pneumatic underpinner).

Mark,
Using the method I use, and having not had a problem with cutting or joining plastic mouldings, I wonder what the "recommended" glue was that you used? (The resultant joints I get are most often better than wood!)

Over the years I have discovered many hundreds of wood mouldings that were "pigs to cut and join". Those, I just don't buy again.

Someone said it already, but it is worth repeating. If you don't like plastic, then don't use it.

[Framing Norah]

Robo, I apologise for not seeing that your quote was attributed to Hugh Phibbs, were you using that tiny font again? I was able to see it better in a later post where you repeat the author’s name at full size.

To the outside world, picture frame mouldings, as a subject, must seem pretty boring and mundane. To see them referred to, as ‘pestilential’, however spelt, would surely be considered emotive. It’s not just me, is it?

Thanks, I appreciate you making the point for me, with the help of Walter Raleigh (or however you prefer to spell it), about closed minds and resistance to entertaining new ideas.

[foxyframer]

We have never used plastic moulding, and like Mark always refer to it as Crunchy Bar framing. The theory should be that unlike wood it will never twist or bow, but it does not get any brownie points on that score. Seen massed produced framed prints hanging in a couple of local well-known furniture stores to bear witness to that. There may come a time when we will all have to use synthetic mouldings, but until then......

Ramin seems to have entered the endangered list just lately. It's getting more expensive, and not 'cheap as chips' as it used to be. Good quality obeche is the best for framing, but even some of that can be a bit patchy.

Who loves the customer who comes in with their own framing lengths!! It's usually some crap stuff they expect you to make up for next to nowt.

Many framers don't want to know.

[Roboframer]

Thanks, I appreciate you making the point for me, .............about closed minds and resistance to entertaining new ideas.

Well my point was that, just like tobacco - plastic mouldings are nothing new - was wondering what the opinion would be if they had just been invented today and we'd all just got to see and use them.

I tried them at the outset - they were cheap, cheap was good!

I don't doubt quality has improved since my first few hundreds of feet from Origin in Croydon .............. I just don't like, or need them, the hole for them to fill doesn't exist, for me. If and when it does I'll no doubt do a 'U' turn without blushing one bit.

[Dove Cottage Crafts]

Hi...In ten years of framing whilst living in England, I have NEVER used plastic and felt ill at THAT word (PLASTIC)being mentioned. However....I now live back in South Africa and have found that synthetic is widely used over here. Must admit ...I thought that living in Africa with all the forests and jungles, that wood would be plenty and cheap !!!!!! Oh no....very expensive compared to synthetic.
I paid a visit to Lanco mouldins in Cape Town who have been in bussiness for 60 years. A massive factory with 95% of theire mouldins being produced in house and about 70% being synthetic. I was amased at the qulity and range that is available....needless to say that I had to do some scraping on the side of some of the samples to convince myself that they were in fact not wood. I can sell most of them to customers with them believing that they are wood......but I am a honest guy for my sins.
They cut perfect on my Morso and pin and stack perfect with my Alpha pinner using normal wedges. I use the synthetic glue that Lanco sell and found that I can glue wood to the synthetic using the glue.
There are a few problems though......If you pin near the outer mitre, then it will tend to open as there is no give as in wood....so I glue and clamp and later pin. When doing large frames using a thin moulding at customers insistance....I have silyconed the glass to the frame or I have braced the frame either using screws and wire or using a flat piece of batten gluing and stapeling this preventing the frame to bow inwards which can be caused by using the wire method. I rub the back of the frame with sand paper and found that normal buff tape sticks well.
One other drawback I found recently..........when I was cutting a very heave embossed 4 inch synthetic......which looked as good as any wood one......I was not able to match the patern. I then found out ....as I had to use a second lengh due to the size of the frame, that the patern when I laid them face to face did not match halfway down the lengh. Ever so little but enough to be vissible on a high profile patern. I was made to believe that this was due to the time of the year that the mould was produced as some strech and cool sooner than others depending on climate....suppose it makes sense to check this when selecting the moulding.
As for ......are they bad for the blades....I don't know......Yet !!!!!!
Regards from South Africa

[Roboframer]

There are a few problems though......

Yes, and to rectify those problems takes TIME - so - if I am going to sell summut that looks like £2 per foot but only costs 70p per foot I'm not willing to make up the difference in labour unless I charge for it - which writes off the reduction in material costs to produce summut that, no matter what anyone says, is inferior.

[Dove Cottage Crafts]

Yes John......I agree. At the moment I am in a little village 3 hours from Cape Town with a lot of work and the customers are easy going and laid back. They are not in a hurry and I do it as a paying sideline besides our craft bussiness as well as looking after 3000 sq meters of ground with 30 apricot trees /fig trees/plums/peaches/lemons/nectarines/quincess/beans/tomatoes/carrots/beetroot/onions/corn on the cob/pumpkins/sweetpotatoes/potatoes/watermellons/ strawberries/ no cabbage this year.......I am suppose to be retired....that is why I came to live in this little village untill they found out I do framing. TIME ????what is it ??????? I am loving it and working from home, so I am my own Boss untill the Wife meets up with me

[Roboframer]

Yeah?

Well I'm my own boss too and I'm just about to take myself to an industrial tribunal.

I sacked myself on Friday for not giving myself any paid holiday in ten years .... or whatever.

I don't think that's very fair - think I see a loophole in one of my insurance policies!!

[Not your average framer]

For my sin in another life I sold polymer test equipment….I got to know the polymer industry quite well……….I still subscribe to one of the main polymer publications

Most of the products I currently sell in my business are made of polymers…..some of which I spec into the electronics and heath care manufacturing sectors…….out gassing with most plastics is not a problem…..

……..for the life of me I’m trying to figure out what plastic materials either moulding, glazing or encapsulation that could or are used in the picture framing industry out gas……perhaps you could enlighten me!!!!!......and point me in the direction of the studied that support your statement…

The subject of adhesives is an entirely separate, science and subject, to plastics and to equate the possible situations with adhesives and plastics that are or can be used in the picture framing industry is a bit disingenuous….

O.K. Dermot,

I am not a polymers expert like you self and I could have been a little bit smarter how I worded it, but I did ask the question "where does the escaping plasticiser go and can it affect the conservation of the artwork?" because I don't know and was trying to contribute to the thread by asking.

You have now answered that question because you do know. In you doing so, I and I trust others have learnt something helpful to know.

My comments about plasticisers come from my experiences as a design engineer. As a young engineer, I was taught that the instablility and failure issues with polymers were mainly related to: Long term loss of plasticisers (some polymers are better than others), ultra-voilet, visible light, heat and other forms of electro-magnetic radiation, mechanical and thermal stress issues and storage and operating environmental temperatures. As you can see, whilst I am not a polymers expert, I am well versed in engineering materials issues.

Many products had to have design changes due to lessons learnt from failures due the life and use of product, where things which should not break did so and self adhesives which should not fail also did so. Such items were returned for analysis and in many cases loss of plasticisers was a favorite expaination. Whether this was just a expedient excuse or always correct, it was a commonly offered explaination.

As these plasticisers contain at least some chemical compounds which are publically said by the media to cause environmental problems because they don't break down they must therefore somehow escape from the plastics in their existing form instead of breaking down. As I have just said, I am not an expert, but I think it is likely that "escape, disperse or out-gas" covers most if not all possiblities and as you will note from my original question "where does the escaping plasticiser go", I am happy to be advised by and to learn from those who know better such as yourself.

Next time I think I'll think more carefully what I have to say!