How much?!

[WelshFramer]

I find that the labour involved in a small frame is nearly the same as a large one

That's indeed true but whereas customers don't mind paying for a large frame they don't seem to want to pay much for a small one.

They can get cheap ready-made small frames or go to some of the local amateur hobyist framers around here and get small frames made quite cheaply. In fact I've seen framed paintings and photographs selling in galleries around here for less that I could economically sell frames for. Mostly the frames are pretty awful but people still buy the stuff.

Just had a customer came in yesterday. She bought a framed photograph done by a local photographer and wants the frame replaced. The window mount is signed, of course so I'll have to think what to do about that. Either scan it and print onto the new mount or ask the photographer to come round and sign it.

[Roboframer]

Anyway, to the point. I generally cost framing by adding up the cost of materials and then adding a markup of around twice that much with a discount for trade custmers. I haven't a clue whether or not that's an appropraite markup but it was a suggested method on one of the framing courses I attended

Bloody suicide!

A 100% markup is the minimum you should be doing for simply selling things on.

What mark-up SHOULD you use? well don't ask me - I don't know what your overheads are; all I know is you are not covering your labour and therefore your arse!

But I will give an example of my costs - out of a 5 pack of artcare mountboard that costs me £17:56 (incl VAT and after discount)

I will get the following - or could, there are many other variables of course - just an example.

5 mounts 44 x 32 with a 4" border @£42 ea = £210
5 36 x 24 @ £14 £ 70
5 29 x 17 @ £7:46 £ 37:30
5 23 x 11 @ £3:52 £ 18:10
5 19 x 7 @ 2:20 £ 11:00

Total £346:40
from £17:46

I'd add that those prices are to add to or deduct from complete frame prices with a mount included - i.e. a double mount or no mount required.

Anyone asking for a mount only - e.g. to fit a ready made bought elswhere would be charged double. Why? - 'cause I don't wanna do it!

So - SLLLLLLLIGHTLY more than a 100% mark up!

[Roboframer]

Man this is bugging me!

We need to get pricing right - right that is - for ourselves BUT - we also need to know what old Joe Framer below us - in his sackcloth apron, smelling of woodstain with a fag hanging out of his gob (that's a cigarette for all US readers!) and arty-farty gallery guy (Tarquin) in his John Virgo waistcoat, pony tail and single earring - are charging.

Can we justify being dearer than Joe and can we prove that we can actaully can do a better job than Tarquin for the same price - less maybe?

Price youself too low and you'll get LOADS of business - you'll feel great ; "Man I must be good - I am Sooooooo busy"

Then, when the dust settles and you realise that you are not making a living, let alone a profit, it's no good thinking 'OOPS' and hiking your prices. I mean wouldn't that be a great way to do business .... 'OK - I want to retire next year ... how can I do that? - I KNOW - I'll up my prices by 600% - YEAH!"

I don't think so!

Price yourself too high - well, you just won't get the business to start.

It's also a good exercise to compare with totally unrelated businesses...

Buy a bag of chips to go - you are holding ONE decent sized baking spud (I don't remember if it's potato or potatoe - sorry) - it's cost you £1:10 - the spud would cost you about six pence - the chip shop paid about TWO pence!

Go to a jeweller with a watch you bought elsewhere and ask them to remove a link from the strap. I had that done while I waited ------ £8:50 -it took SECONDS!!!

This subject is a big deal to me because I know I have my pricing bang on - I'm not cheap but I'm competitive. Then some jerk with all the gear and no idea opens up - unwittingly undercuts us and then goes under leaving hordes of regretful customers in his wake.

I could go on ..................... BOY could I go on!

But it's tomorrow!

[WelshFramer]

Bloody suicide!

A 100% markup is the minimum you should be doing for simply selling things on.

Adding up the cost then adding twice that is a 200% markup -- i.e. a standard frame sells for 3 times the materials cost.

[Roboframer]

OK - 'adding a mark up of twice that much' I misunderstood.

Still a three times mark up (incl VAT) is the absolute min I use for anything - in fact only the very most expensive mouldings and museum glass - my mark up for museum glass is twice the suppliers cut-to-size cost, but I buy full sheets, get a 15% discount and a furher 2.5% discount for COD - so it's actually more than a 3 x mark up, just 3 times the list price.

[Underpinner]

Anyway, to the point. I generally cost framing by adding up the cost of materials and then adding a markup of around twice that much with a discount for trade custmers. I haven't a clue whether or not that's an appropraite markup but it was a suggested method on one of the framing courses I attended.

This worries me! Is this supposed to arrive at the total price of the frame to the customer? If so, two questions:
1. What exactly do you mean by the "cost of materials"? Is this just the supplier's catalogue price? With or without VAT? Does it include a mark-up to allow for wastage of materials? Does this vary depending on the material? etc.

2. Having cleared all that up, Is the mark-up of "around twice that much" intended to cover labour and overheads? If so, I do not follow the reasoning behind this method, which appears to say that there is a direct relationship between the cost of material for a particular job and the amount of time charged for that job? Surely it ain't necessarily so.

This method sounds like a popular formula that was being quoted around 10-15 years ago which said something like: cost of materials x 3 = price of frame. Well, there might have been a time when this produced the right answer - but the right answer produced by the wrong formula is unlikely to remain right for long in my opinion.

A similar formula was quoted to me when I was doing my initial training in 1995. This was was even simpler: Cost of materials (including allowance for waste + £10 labour = cost of frame. Equally wrong and oversimplified. Was the "labour" intended to include rent, rates, telephone, electricity, depreciation, etc. etc. and what was my actual hourly wage?

And finally... ...thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It has been fascinating and I have a feeling that it hasn't finished yet.

[WelshFramer]

This worries me! Is this supposed to arrive at the total price of the frame to the customer? If so, two questions:
1. What exactly do you mean by the "cost of materials"? Is this just the supplier's catalogue price? With or without VAT? Does it include a mark-up to allow for wastage of materials? Does this vary depending on the material? etc.

My starting point is to take the gross cost of the materials (including postage, etc) and multiply by three. Some materials that are difficult to work with have higher markups and some items (e.g. fitting rings and cord) have a standard cost). Mountboard is generally rounded to the nearest quarter sheet and mouldings are rounded to the nearest half.

That way, small frames with cheap mouldings are quite cheap but then they frequently consist of offcuts that I've already charged for so they cost me almost nothing in materials.

The benefit of this method is that it's quick and easy to give quotes and gives costs that by and large reflect customers' expectations.

The disadvantage is that it underestimates the true costs of some jobs (while overestimating others). So long as the work mix is about right then it all comes out OK in the end. If the work mix isn't right then I live in penury.

I should mention that this costing method is for 'standard' framing jobs -- I wouldn't use it for, for example, framing a rugby shirt (football shirt maybe, but not a rugby shirt ).

[John]

For bespoke framers, pricing is an art rather than a science. Anyone who thinks that it is possible to define a method for precisely calculating the price that we should charge for a given frame, taking into account every single cost and time component, is deluding themselves.

An accurate system that allows fine tuning of prices, based on the quantities of materials used in each element of the frame as the size varies, is as good a way as any to maintain a profitable level of trading.

[kev@frames]

Just to add to what I posted earlier a long time back on this thread:

its mostly a case of how much can you charge in many cases.
at some point there is a tipping point where you try to charge too much and dont get enough work, or the other way round (as we did for many years) sell too cheap and have too much work. I think this is a combination of fear, competition, and wrongly judging customers by the depth of your own pockets.

It must vary town by town.

we tend to use pricing to control the volume of work now in the shop, using increases over the past few years to throttle back the number of jobs incoming, and we offset many of the lost sales by selling up ready mades if the bespoke prices make people a bit itchy.

anybody can go online on our website and see what we charge for a custom made frame in any size in a limited range of inexpensive mouldings. Then come into the shop and end up with a different price! But bearing in mind there is charge in there for fitting, finishing of fiddling (the FOUR "F"s.... no marks for guessing what the first missing F stands for) its about right for us and our overheads, these online prices bear no relation to what we charge in the shop, but pretty much do reflect what the average online customer will pay. It is interesting to see which parts of the country various priced frames go.
eg. we learnt that there was little point in selling at "cornwall" mount prices to London buyers, who are more than happy to pay london prices and still get it quicker online!

One thing that stands out about pricing, and everyone in the shop and workshops have noticed this, is that having a pricing software pakage DOES enable you to sell up more easily, add value and options, and customers seldom ask for a discount.

"The computer says no"

Its the way to go. We have never looked back since getting sorted out with computerised pricing.
I'd highly recommend to anybody to get a cheapo PC and a flat screen on your countertop and then install some pricing software, it makes everyones life so much easier. Id go as far as to recommend it if you frame from home, too. As john says above, if its easily tuned, and prevents you making those pricing errors that turn a good job into a PITA job, its worth it.
Im beginning to think that the only reason a PITA job is a PITA is because it was quoted out of thin air, rather than priced by the program based on the amount of work as well as the amount of materials!
Anfd if you lose a PITA job due to the price you have the consolation of knowing that someone else (hopefully your arch enemey, nemises and competitor down the road) is stuck with it

[Frameus]

So how much for that sample frame now. Using a price of £2.50 a metre (cost price before VAT)? That is a glass dimension of 20" (500mm x 16" (400mm). Single white core mount board with 560mm borders. Here in Wells, Somerset, we would charge £56.00 + VAT today.

I would be very interested to hear other people's opinions.

[Frameus]

Sorry! The moulding is costing £2.50 per. metre and the mount board borders are 50mm (not 560mm). Everybody seems to be avoiding the question. To frame a simple and inexpensive water colour on good quality paper, using an uncomplicated moulding, standard white core board, fluted board backing board, 2mm float glass, single D rings and cord - how much would you charge in 2007??? It's an easy question. It would be lovely to have an answer as a number + VAT.

I have stated that we would charge £56.00

[Roboframer]

Well have a bit of patience, you only asked 40 mins ago and we're all at home!

(Assuming - without searching through all this that you have asked previous, but still)

A question though - what is between the 'fluted .......' and the watercolour?

Oh and retail prices must include VAT, so why not ask for what the customer would pay and save us some maths!

I'll let you know tomorrow, but it won't relate that well as I don't use any of the boards you mention.

(Edit - I see the question was asked in the first post)

[Roboframer]

Small Print,

Actually I'll post a price of mine using what I would use, and I'll also tell you how long it took, that bit I can do now. Target 20 mins, actual, probably 10.


I don't think what I or anyone else charges has much value at all, there are so many variables.

Are you getting any discount on mouldings/mountboard and if so do you pass it on? (Answer here - mountboard - no, mouldings - only on the higher end - plainwoods that are hand-finished - another story) So my price wil be suppliers' LIST but it ain't what I'm paying.

While you're at it, let us all know what your overheads are, break them down if you don't mind, rent rates, fuel & light, maintenance payments to 3 ex wives maybe, wages .... have you a mortgage? do you own your shop, do you HAVE a shop etc etc.

Then let us all know what sort of volume you produce, 2 or 3 frames a day? 20 - 30?

What sort of scope do you have to knowingly undercut the competition whilst still beating them on quality and service and still make more profit.

Do you think it compulsory to charge more because your standards are higher - if that was the case?

How LONG does it take you to make said piece?

Do you have an unfair share of the market. Can you set trends?

It's a minefield, but I know people like to compare so I'll join those that have shared.

[Merlin]

Thankfully, having a good accountant we are not VAT registered.

My price to the customer is £60.00

[georgeh]

My costs for this would be £11.42 !
This would be double mounted hinged using standard mountboard.

On current exchange rates this equates to 80 malaysian ringitt, the buying power of 1 MYR is roughly equivalent to £1.00, therefore this would equate to £80

The framers in town would charge around 50-60MYR, probably as low as 40, depending on location, for that you would get your watercolour stuck to plywood with double sided tape and mounted straight to glass!
They would charge more for fabric because that would be stapled to the plywood.

An interesting calculation would be how much of the £60 would go to the taxman/council, taking into account council tax, income tax, VAT on utilities, not to mention fuel tax paid if you have to collect from your suppliers for a rush job, parking fees and the speeding fine if you get caught in the camera on the way back!

Happy New Year !


George Hannah

[georgeh]

Should of course said my price to the customer would be £11.42.

I've been in the jungle too long!

[markw]

£73.20 to customer - Artcare mount and back - Art Bak conservation back. All are standard materials here.

I would charge £112.21 if Clearcolour Plus Uv was used - this option is becoming very popular

[kaptain.kopter]

The criteria laid down by underpinner were; "For example: A 20 x 16in. (glass size) frame for an original watercolour, conservation board single mount and undermount with Corri 2 backing board and standard 2mm float glass, D rings, cord and frame bumpers. Moulding £2.50 per metre before VAT. The finished job £59."

My price works out at £52:50, so not too dissimilar

[absolute framing]

20 x 16 Glass Size. Daler Conservation Pro Window & Under Mount, Archival T-Hinging With Standard Glass, Cons Art-Bak Backing Board, Sealed with Brown Gum Tapem+ D-rings & Cord
Euro 77 or in your money £ 52

[JFeig]

pricing for my side of the pond - $112US for reg glass - $120 Conservation Clear.......... with C1153(100% rag) mount, hinge on rag mount and AFFC filler board, frame, assembly. Your frame example of £2.50/m is about $1.66US/ft. for length pricing.

The filler board is a second board behind the art to stiffen the entire package.

I am used to cutting and joining my frame material; however, many framers in the US buy only precut-to-size "chops". buying chops costs 1 1/2 - 2 times the price of the base length prices. Distributors will give volume discounts on length. Volume discounts on chops is much less frequent.