Yellow Pages/ BT Phonebook

[Grahame Case]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if any of you found advertising in these two phonebooks beneficial, and are happy with the quality and service on artwork etc produced by them?


For the past 10 years of business we have religiously advertised in the yellow pages. Similarly, the BT phonebook, it is a great way to get first time customers in through the door. Not necessarily for people to find your number once an established customer though.

I've been pretty unhappy with the quality of artwork provided through these two companies in house art departments (blurred logos, and one time a stereotypical picture of an elderly male framer suggested by the Yellow pages.

Today, we had a meeting with the BT phonebook agent, and sorted out our advertising for the next year. I refused to let them do their artwork, because i feel it had cost us business last year by looking unprofessional and tacky..

They had also misguided us into placing large ads in the relatively obscure A-Z - if people want a picture framer they are far more likely to search within the classifieds, rather than chance upon our advert under "Blackhall" in the a-z They had done this for two regions worth of phone books, meaing we were expending a great deal of money for nothing.

hopefully this image (in the classifieds) may show what i'm moaning about, note a very blurred image.
an exact copy of this is in black and white in the rear of the phonebook.

so tonight, i've sat down and come up with our advert for next year.
That way i know what i'm getting without proof after proof, and no hope of things getting resolved in time. (hopefully they wont mess this up)



obviously we don't have pre-view up and running yet, but we shall in time for this advert! (fingers crossed)

Would be great to hear your thoughts and experiences, i wonder if its sometimes they just don't understand our trade too well.


Whinge Over


Grahame

[Roboframer]

We sacked them!

Yellow pages worked for us for many years, we progressed from the free entry you get with any business line (we have two business lines) to a credit card sized display ad, two of those, one each in the Portsmouth and the Brighton editions plus non- display ads in both, plus free entries, all under different categories.

Then they got pushy and pestered us almost daily wanting us to arrange a 'consultation' and/or to submit changes 6 months in advance of the deadline for the new issues.

We got so p'd off with these calls that we said "LOOK - we WILL sort out next years ads well before the deadline, but call us ONCE more and we will cancel ALL of our paid for ads.

They called next day - we binned them.

We put what we saved into extra radio advertising, that REALLY works so well for us. You see, for a customer to find you in yellow pages, they have to be looking for a framer to start with - people don't 'browse' yellow pages.

Radio advertising is intrusive. Costs us £6000+ pa but is way way more effective than yellow pages, where we still have two free listings anyway and if location is the issue, it STILL works without paying for a display ad.

[kev@frames]

our experience with them mirrors Robos.
A right PITA.

We get most of our phone enquiries, including local ones, via google.

We were actually ex-directory (well, un-listed) for twelve years, by choice, and it never did us any harm at all.

They (yellow pages, thompsons etc) certainly dont understand ANY business if they think its acceptable to telephone a shop three times in an hour, clogging up the line for customers with credit cards who actually want to buy something from you, and interrupting your business when you are trying to help customers.

They are as bad as ali unpronouncable and his sidekick "charles" from bangalore who seem to phone on a daily basis with unbeatable deals for mobile phones, broadband connections, printer toner, free DVDs, timeshare holidays and cruise "prizes", life insurance and other pap we dont want, never asked for and wouldn't touch with a barge pole .
they STILL call when you have told them to fork off, they even carry on when you read them their horroscope featuring mental-mike, the boot of a lexus, a box of swan vestas and a gallon of four star. If "stick it up your <insert chosen body cavity here> " isn't something they can understand, they'll never understand anything about any business which involves a retail shop.

I've gone off on one again, haven't I.

[Bill Henry]

Unfortunately, any discussion of advertising usually boils down to anecdotal information. There is precious little reliable data to wrap your head around.

John and Kev have apparently had good luck in dumping their display ads. I, on the other hand, did not.

My anecdote: for years I ran a 1/4, absurdly expensive display ad in our Yellow Pages (the core directory not one of the newer fly-by-night jobs). In order to save money, and because I had been listed first for several years, I reduced the size to the 1/8 page, merely ridiculously expensive display ad. My sales for that year dropped about 10%. The following year I went back to the 1/4 page size.

But, what factors other than my YP advertising may have contributed to this decline? The economy? Phases of the moon? My personal hygiene? I don’t know and don’t have the resources or the smarts to find out.

So far, the most demonstrably effective advertising campaign for us has been cable television. After the first 10 week run (30 – thirty second spots per week), our sales were up 27%! (and that was after we deducted the cost of production and air time)

BUT, since our logo only appeared on screen for a few seconds, there was little time for people to jot down our address or phone number. I believe (more anecdotal information coming) that when it came time for people to look for a frame shop, they browsed through the yellow pages, found a logo they had seen before on TV, and, “bingo!”, new customers. I firmly believe that without the yellow pages, our increased sales would not have been nearly as good.

Downsizing or eliminating yellow page advertising is tempting, but it may be a crap shoot whether you will save heaps of wasted money or drive your business into the toilet.

A suggestion for Grahame:

Your blue logo is striking! It should be a lot more effective than the washed out one. But, try printing it out on cheap, off white paper in a “draft” mode of your printer. That might more closely mimic the kind of cheesy paper and bland inks that the publishers of the yellow pages may use.

[Grahame Case]

A suggestion for Grahame:

Your blue logo is striking! It should be a lot more effective than the washed out one. But, try printing it out on cheap, off white paper in a “draft” mode of your printer. That might more closely mimic the kind of cheesy paper and bland inks that the publishers of the yellow pages may use.

Thanks for the advice Bill, but i had already tried that last night i actually printed it on a page from the phonebook to see what it would look like, unfortunately i cannot reproduce the quality of the laser/screen printing that is used. The logo is certainly much better than any advert we've ever had within a phone book.

[Roboframer]

We don't give our phone No in our radio ad, and only briefly say where we are.

We're called 'Angmering Framing' so it's a no brainer. If they want to ring us or find a map they can google us, or, if they look in Yellow pages, we are one of the first entries.

We also, a long time ago, gave up listing, or trying to list what we do as well, all we want to do is get our name heard in a way that will be remembered.

I'd love to know how every single new person that comes through our door found us. Some travel 90 miles after finding us on the internet (no website - well, not a proper one, just an unfinished one that we got let down on that we don't know how to erase) and some that live less than a mile away come in saying 'How long have you been here?'

[Grahame Case]

We have customers who come from Durham and the Northern Isles to get stuff framed...


it's crazy.

[Roboframer]

a box of swan vestas

You know what, I really do not remember the last time I saw anyone strike a match, or come to that saw a match - dead or alive.

There was a new-fangled lighter they brought out once - didn't catch on, no flint, no battery, you just pressed the button and lit it, with a match.

Sorry, where were we?

[Grahame Case]

Grahame 1 - Phone Book Man NIL

I think the phonebook guy got a shock today, when picking up and finalising the new artwork with us.

I don't know what he had expected from me in an hour or so last night... maybe some half assed effort..

But he was a bit awestruck with what was produced, i swear his jaw dropped when he saw it. He said he hadn't seen a user designed adver that good in ages (cue smug grin from me)


i like getting one over people like that..

[ross]

Yep, the same problem over here with Yellow Pages - do you, or do you not stay in them

Every year I think about pulling out - have downsized once in last 5 years

We don't get nearly the response we use to, but there is still a positive about staying in it. Actually, a far better response is to be gained from using Yellow Pages On-line - we are definitely seeing an increase in use of this medium

In small communities I can see real value in advertising on the radio - have tried it hear in Brisbane but the field is too widely spread to gain any real benefit from it - people are not going to drive past many other framing enterprises to come to East Brisbane unless there is something really in it for them

Reverting to your draft advert. Graham, I would ask what do you want an enquirer to find from your advertisement (remember they are already in the picture framing section) -

. is it the name of your business

. is it where you are

. is it that you have got a CMC (my son once said to me, "what is a CMC"? When I told him what it meant, he just said "if I came to you to have something framed, I would expect you to have the right equipment to do a good job!)

So are you wasteing precious dollars by filling your advert. with useless information?

Whenever possible customers pull out the Yellow Pages, they are searching for someone they perceive can do the specific task they want at that moment - your advert. needs to grab their immediate attention by highlighting your differences from the other advertisers

So your advert needs to lightlight what it is that you do well - what is your USP?

Another thing I have learnt over the years in dealing with advertising consultants is that the eye generally reads a page, an advertisement, from top left corner to bottom right corner. So in designing an advertisement, you need your most striking statement in the top left corner flowing through to your logo in bottom right corner

Here ended the epistle!

Ross

[kev@frames]

You know what, I really do not remember the last time I saw anyone strike a match, or come to that saw a match - dead or alive.

There was a new-fangled lighter they brought out once - didn't catch on, no flint, no battery, you just pressed the button and lit it, with a match.

Sorry, where were we?

swan vestas.... definitely showing my age a bit with that one eh!

[Grahame Case]

i was about to show the Yellow Pages rep the door today...

the cost of advertising in the Yellow pages seems like a big rip off, we've reduced our advert substantially this year and pulled out of yell.com all together... come on £33.00 a month for advertising online in the Edinburgh area! i could better invest that in more direct marketing.

in fact i'm thinking of radio adverts.

[prospero]

I'm sure Yellow Pages works well for certain busnesses. I have my free entry and that's it. On the subject of advertising in general, I find that for every genuine enquiry I get there are 10 other calls from other publications wanting me to advertise with them. Plus a few more headbangers wanting to know what grannie's picture is worth. Waste of time and money.

Nowadays I never pay for advertising.

[Grahame Case]

she quoted us for a similar advert to the one we have in the BT phonebook ( quarter column across three columns)

it was working out at nearly three times the price of the BT advert....

something rather strange there.. maybe gross profiteering?

[Grahame Case]

sorry for the double post.

i just thought i would post the artwork we are using for the Yellow Pages ad.


somehow we are using the same size ad, pulling out of craft materials section. and removing our single line entry from the craft materials bit and yet we are still spending not much less than last year

[Moglet]

For the past two years, I've just had a "text-only" listing in the Golden Pages (which is chargeable over here!). It hasn't resulted in the business being "inundated" with enquiries, but it has generated enough business to more than pay for itself.

I've decided to upgrade to display adverts (which, like Grahame, I've designed myself) in two Golden Pages directories this year (I'm in location on the border of two "directory" areas) so I've had to up my advertising spend substantially. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Well, I hope...

I was surprised to read above that Yell website entries are chargeable. Weren't they free a couple of years ago (pre-2003)? At least the Yell entries are informative. Ireland's equivalentis pants. The search is as fuzzy as coarse grade sandpaper, and the listings! They certainly do justice to the term 'minimalist'...
___

Edited to add:

The actual service side is a bit hit-n-miss with Golden Pages. The first year I advertised with them, I didn't make the copy deadline for the first directory area, as the telesales rep went completely AWOL on me. That said, they did give me a completely free, emboldened entry in the second directory for that year by way of apology. Also, the young lady that dealt with my advertising this year has been beyond helpful, even though I chopped and changed a few things as we went along. I would give her top marks for customer service!

[Twin Peaks]

I am waiting for all the literature to come from them in readiness for next years edition. I have produced my own flyers and personally delivering them locally. I am based in the Shropshire hills near Shrewsbury starting a new business. Any advice on advertising generally would be most welcome, particularly what works best for fellow framers.

[Bill Henry]

... come on £33.00 a month for advertising online in the Edinburgh area! i could better invest that in more direct marketing.

Wow, Grahame, compared to you, I am getting ska•rood!

Admittedly I’m in three different books (but all of them are published by the core directory published by my telecom company, Verizon). I am paying over $780./month (~ £389).

There are at least 5 other competing phone book companies all of whom are a lot cheaper than Verizon, but from what I can determine, nobody uses them. They tend to become liners for bird cages.

The effectiveness of yellow page advertising is awfully hard to get a handle on.

It seems to me (although anything I believe has no basis in fact) that if you have been established for a long time, have little or no competition, and your shop name is easily remembered, a simple line ad would be adequate.

However, within a 15 mile radius of me, there are 12 other picture framers (and we’re in the suburbs) – including two “Big Box” craft/framing warehouses, so it seems to me that to get noticed, you’ve really got to stand out. To me (again, anything I believe has no basis in fact), the bigger the better – as long as the ad copy isn’t downright horrible.

I would love to drop my yellow page ads, but I’m scared to death to try.

[Moglet]

... if you have been established for a long time, have little or no competition, and your shop name is easily remembered, a simple line ad would be adequate.

... to get noticed, you’ve really got to stand out.....the bigger the better

Most of the framers in my two 'directory areas' (which include two cities, btw) just have a single line entry. The larger ones have 'bold' or 'text-with-a-box-round-it' entries. I'm hoping that my display ad will really raise the profile of the business. As none of my competitors use display ads, my eighth-page display should stand out quite well, and will hopefully raise the profile of my business.

Not cheap - over €3.5K for two directories (display ad plus cross-referenced listing under "Galleries" classification.)

I plan to reduce the size of the ad, and maybe return to a text-only listing, once the business is better established.

I have produced my own flyers and personally delivering them locally

Many of the local businesses in my town have offered to pop some of my flyers on their counter. (All I need to do now is design the flyers.... been threatening to for two years now... ) If you haven't done so already, TP, it might be worth asking local businesses in your area to do the same.

Community noticeboards seem to be popular over here (local post-offices, newsagents, supermarkets). A small but attractively-designed ad in such places should stand out fairly well. (Seems to work wonders for bouncy castle businesses... )

Also, TP, I've started building a little spreadsheet 'database' of my customers, and their addresses give me an idea of where my business is coming from. I've also started asking my customers how they heard about me (e.g. yellow pages; referral from other business in the town; recommendation by friends or family). I ask my customers for advice on good ways to advertise in their locality, they are usually very happy to recommend local newspapers, local radio stations, and so forth.

[Grahame Case]

Wow, Grahame, compared to you, I am getting ska•rood!

thats just online though Bill, the actual yellow pages ad is much much much more expensive, think around $3000 + for ten montd and to get a link to our website put on the online version is even more. i'd much rather use google adwords...